angry panda, i'm aware of that wikipedia definition, and it is bad, almost no current atheist would identifies with it. I actually tried to change it one time on the wikipedia but they changed it back. The english definition on wikipedia is far better. (and i guess that's why you put the french one instead of the english one hey?)
Anyway, lets assume atheism a doctrine, what would be its tenant?

Une doctrine (mot attesté en 1160, du latin doctrina, « enseignement », « théorie », « méthode », « doctrine ») est un ensemble global de conceptions d'ordre théorique enseignées comme vraies par un auteur ou un groupe d'auteurs. Les doctrines peuvent être considérées quelquefois comme des utopies.
wikipedia french

Doctrine (from Latin: doctrina or possibly from Sanskrit: dukrn) is a codification of beliefs or a body of teachings or instructions, taught principles or positions, as the essence of teachings in a given branch of knowledge or belief system.
wikipedia english

Go ahead, what are the "global conceptions", or "belief system" of atheism?

It's not actually relevant whether or not hitler himself was religious, although he wasn't. He did want to maintain good relations with the catholic church, which is probably responsible for the quotes you referenced.

What matters is that religion was oppressed in nazi germany. Keep in mind that there were around 8 million nazi's, not just one. Hitler was the face of the nazi party in a lot of ways, but he himself preferred to be thought of as an evangelist to spread the groups message.

You can blame What the Nazi's or stalin did on atheism in the same manner that you can Anything else On theism, that is that you can't.

My points were:

1. It is completely hypocritical to Even presume that Atheists are not capable of committing the same atrocities as theists, or to focus on Evil things that theists have done to make a point about why religion its self is evil.


2. There are more examples of Theists committing said atrocities than atheists because there are a lot more theists in the world than atheists.

https://youtu.be/UwbK1w1jOVU

Im so excited! Can't wait!

1. It is completely hypocritical to Even presume that Atheists are not capable of committing the same atrocities as theists, or to focus on Evil things that theists have done to make a point about why religion its self is evil.

Well nobody presumed that that atheist couldn't do bad things. My point was that atheist or theist must be drove by other motives than just the fact that they believe in god or they don't. Because that's what atheist and theism is, just the fact of believing in a deity or not believing. There is no logical path from going "i believe in god", to "therefore i should do this or that".

However, if you are a religious theist, and you have been told your whole life that there is just one God,and that a certain book is the true word of this all powerful god.
And If it is written in this book that:
-any uncircumcized male should be cut-off from his family (genesis 17:14), or that
-homosexual, unbelievers, sorcerers and what-not deserves to burn in a lake of fire for eternity, or that
-anyone who don't listen to the priest should be put to death (Deuteronomy 17:12), or that
-your god commands you to kill the unbelievers (Quran 2:191), or that
-if you fight and die for your god you will go to heaven (Quran 3:157),
-or.....see where i'm going?

Well then if makes perfect sense that some violence and bad things would come out of it doesn't it?

In the same way, if you are a nationalist and you think that everyone that don't agree with the state should be killed, and this state happens to be atheist, then there is also something bad that would come out of it.

So no it doesn't make sense to hold atheism or theism responsible for the bad things that atheist or theist did. What should be held responsible, to some degree at least, are the doctrines associated with a certain form of communism, christianism and islamism.

2. There are more examples of Theists committing said atrocities than atheists because there are a lot more theists in the world than atheists.

i'm not adding numbers, i'm only criticizing ideologies and doctrines associated with religions. I could do the same for ussr communism, but for some reason i don't think that's much relevent today is it?
Religions based on a book where killings and massacres and divine commands are ever so present, tends to be more violent than others, i'm just saying that maybe there is a connection to be made...that's all.

Edited 8/14/2015 03:12:57

If you believe, as I do, that religion causes more harm than good you should really read Friedrich Nietzsche's Anti-christ. He makes some good points.

Edited 8/14/2015 00:53:44

Well if this is a good book then it would be better for someone who disagree that religion causes more harm than good to read the book. After reading and whatching debates from hitchen and dawkins, i've pretty much see it all.

When I think about it I have to concede that religious ideology has caused people to do horrible things like what the British did when colonizing parts of the world or what ISIS is doing now. I'm also sorry for being a little hostile.

However, if you are a religious theist, and you have been told your whole life that there is just one God,and that a certain book is the true word of this all powerful god.
And If it is written in this book that:
-any uncircumcized male should be cut-off from his family (genesis 17:14), or that
-homosexual, unbelievers, sorcerers and what-not deserves to burn in a lake of fire for eternity, or that
-anyone who don't listen to the priest should be put to death (Deuteronomy 17:12), or that
-your god commands you to kill the unbelievers (Quran 2:191), or that
-if you fight and die for your god you will go to heaven (Quran 3:157),
-or.....see where i'm going?

Although it does say some of those things in the bible, none of them can actually be held accountable for violence committed because of them.

1. This was a command given by God to one family, the family of ths dude named Abraham/His descendents. You'll find that this is the case for a lot of "bad" bible verses from the Old testament. In case you were wondering, he told him this and a whole bunch of other stuff because he wanted them to behave Impeccably since he was giving them like, all this land to live in.

2. This can be taken out of context and used to invoke violence, but it actually says in the Bible that everyone deserves to burn in hell.

3. Again, a command to be followed by Jews.

I'm not even going to try to defend the Quran; I have no kind words for Islam.

Tsh, Christians have done worse then Muslims, The British Empire killed millions, committed genocide quite a few times , set up concentration camps , used forced labour, destroyed many cultures, and left Africa in turmoil. Their excuse? Spreading Christianity. British prayer- "Onward Christian soldiers , into heathen lands, prayer books in your pockets, rifles in your hands, take the happy tidings where trade can be done, spread the peaceful gospel with the Gatling gun"

Edited 8/14/2015 17:37:54

Almost none of the Crusades were actually religious.

Tsh, Christians have done worse then Muslims, The British Empire killed millions, committed genocide quite a few times , set up concentration camps , used forced labour, destroyed many cultures, and left Africa in turmoil. Their excuse? Spreading Christianity.

The key word there is excuse. European empires simply said they were doing it all for God to make themselves feel more justified, religion was not their original motivator. What motivated the Europeans back then was greed and imperialism. Three Gs: Gold,Glory, and God. They were prioritized by the imperial powers in that order, mostly gold was what mattered though.

Edited 8/14/2015 17:41:48

Yes and ISIS fights for gold , glory and god. If you wish to criticize them for conquering for their god and only their god then I will do the same to the British Imperial soldiers who acted as savagely if not more savagely then the modern ISIS.

i do think religion itself is rather blameless. good christians pay more attention to the parts of the bible that promote peace and love and consider the bible open to interpretation. people following the bible strictly and judging others are using the bible to follow darker human impulses, like hatred of others, violence, etc. and imperialists and other bad people in power use their religion to gain more power.

so it's not religion itself. believing in a god has no outcome on your morals one way or the other. it's people that use religion for non-religious ends that are to blame.

as an atheist, this is the only support i can give to religion.

And its a good supporting argument. In the dark ages few actually had access to any biblical texts. The majority of those that did have some of the bible used it to their ends.

Yes and ISIS fights for gold , glory and god. If you wish to criticize them for conquering for their god and only their god then I will do the same to the British Imperial soldiers who acted as savagely if not more savagely then the modern ISIS.

You can judge the British soldiers all you want. Just don't try and pin the blame for their selfish actions on Christianity. For that was merely their excuse, not their true motivation.

Considering Britain starved millions of Indians to death just because for money/taxes and at the same time gave them smaller rations, I'd say the British Empire makes my Mongolian Empire look like pussies, which they aren't, because the Mongols totally kicked everybody's ass.

Edited 8/14/2015 19:20:39

it's people that use religion for non-religious ends that are to blame.

^This.

Most religions (Buhdism, Judaism, Christianity) are mostly peaceful; its misinformation/ mass organized religion that's the problem.

That was a core part of Jesus's teaching- he was against the strict code of the Pharisees, and was, in a sense, against the concept of strict "religion" in itself.

Buhdism, Judaism, Christianity

You forgot Islam.

I'm not even going to try to defend the Quran; I have no kind words for Islam.

Considering that the Bible and Quran are books that stem from two similar Abrahamic religions this is very hypocritical. There is absolutely no reason for you to treat either of these differently.

Never start a thread about religion.
I had one with under 10 players and it had nearly 500 posts...Those many pages were annoying much...