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The Rebel Flag.: 10/8/2015 17:21:03

Empire of Kilos
Level 31
(Disclaimer) I do not support Racism or Slavery, I just want to explore the Hypocrisy of some people. Got that? Ok lets begin

Before getting to the mini rant I would like to state that this.

is not the Confederate Flag. This is.

However since the Virginia Battle Flag is the most synonymous with the South I shall talk about it. The Virginia Battle Flag has always been ridiculed as Racist, While yes it was flown to Protect Slavery compared to other Flags it's pretty tame. Lets look at a few example's shall we?

The Union Jack is the Symbol of Great Britain and is usually not brought up when talking about the Confederacy. However it should as it is a great example of a Racist Flag. While the Confederate flag was flown during the fight for the right to own slaves the Union Jack was out in Africa, India, and Australia committing enslaving horrific acts against the Natives of these regions.

The Stars and Stripes. This flag just screams Murica land of the free right? Other perhaps you know it as the flag that was flown while committing mass murder against native Americans and more recently, the Middle East.

Most people who mouth about how Racist the Confederate Flag is are from these two Nations. All I'm trying to say is learn the history of your own Flags before ridiculing another.
The Rebel Flag.: 10/8/2015 18:19:14

Tiny Koala
Level 56
The Confederacy was created for the sole purpose of perpetuating the institution of slavery. Alexander Stephens, the vice-president of the Confederacy, explained quite clearly the differences between the Confederate and Union constitutions:

The new constitution has put at rest, forever, all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institution African slavery as it exists amongst us the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the “rock upon which the old Union would split.” He was right.
The prevailing ideas entertained by him and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old constitution, were that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally, and politically.
Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error.
Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition.

You can read the rest of the speech here:
The Rebel Flag.: 10/8/2015 18:25:09

Level 58
the difference is the US and GB flags are flags of currently existing countries. democratic countries at that. so those two countries have an opportunity to make up for past sins and become better. great britain also banned slavery well before the US did. and much much later, britain got out of the colonizing business. yes, these countries still do bad things to other people and other countries, but at least they have the chance to become better.

the confederacy is dead, so alas we will never know if they would have freed the slaves on their own (as some claim). and the south had at least as much of a part in the extermination of native americans as the north, so if you are keeping a list make sure to check that on both flags. also, the southern states were at least halfway responsible for britain's involvement in the african slave trade since they were on the demand side of the equation. so check that on both those flags too.

but, more to the point, why debate about which flag is worse? that is just steering the conversation away from what really matters.

im pretty sure the only reasonable arguments are about whether or not the confederate battle flag should be flown from public buildings. if you want my opinion, i don't think it should be. if given the most literal symbolism it still represents a group who waged war against the united states and lost. to continue to fly it from state houses sends the signal that southern states are still "at war" with northern states and the federal government. which the federal government can and should oppose. if you want to be loose with the symbolism and say it ONLY represents southern heritage and state rights, i can be loose with my symbolism too and say it ONLY represents racism, slavery, the KKK, and treason.

edit: and thanks truncate for the cornerstone speech. it gets very little mention from those claiming states rights as motives for seceding. if you think the civil war was not about slavery, i think the confederate vice president would disagree with you.

Edited 10/8/2015 18:30:24
The Rebel Flag.: 10/8/2015 18:29:18

Level 55
Russian tricolour flag is based on the Dutch flag.

Russia is actually a vassal theode of Holland.

Edited 10/8/2015 18:29:51
The Rebel Flag.: 10/8/2015 18:34:50

Tiny Koala
Level 56
Here is a key passage from the Texas Declaration of Secession:

We hold as undeniable truths that the governments of the various States, and of the confederacy itself, were established exclusively by the white race, for themselves and their posterity; that the African race had no agency in their establishment; that they were rightfully held and regarded as an inferior and dependent race, and in that condition only could their existence in this country be rendered beneficial or tolerable.
The Rebel Flag.: 10/8/2015 18:58:32

Tiny Koala
Level 56
You can read the declaration of causes of seceding states here:

For example, from Georgia:

For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slave-holding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery.


Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world.

South Carolina:

Those States have assume the right of deciding upon the propriety of our domestic institutions; and have denied the rights of property established in fifteen of the States and recognized by the Constitution; they have denounced as sinful the institution of slavery; they have permitted open establishment among them of societies, whose avowed object is to disturb the peace and to eloign the property of the citizens of other States. They have encouraged and assisted thousands of our slaves to leave their homes; and those who remain, have been incited by emissaries, books and pictures to servile insurrection.


The point of all this is that the Confederacy existed for no other reason than to perpetuate the institution of slavery as it existed at that time. In this way, white supremacy was fundamental to the Confederacy, which distinguishes it from the U.S. and the U.K.

Edited 10/8/2015 18:59:14
The Rebel Flag.: 10/8/2015 20:42:28

Level 59
Let's talk about rebels. I was cut off but these are some of the people who signed the declaration of independence

Adams, Samuel Massachusetts Boston, MA 9/27/1722 10/2/1803 Merchant CO
Bartlett, Josiah New Hampshire Amesbury, MA 11/21/1729 5/19/1795 Physician CO
Braxton, Carter Virginia Newington, VA 9/10/1736 10/10/1797 Plantation Owner EP
Carroll of Carrollton, Charles Maryland Annapolis, MD 9/19/1737 11/14/1832 Merchant/Plantation Owner RC
Chase, Samuel Maryland Somerset Co., MD 4/17/1741 6/19/1811 Lawyer EP
Clark, Abraham New Jersey Elizabethtown, NJ 2/15/1741 9/15/1794 Lawyer/Surveyor PB
Clymer, George Pennsylvania Philadelphia, PA 3/16/1739 1/24/1813 Merchant QU/EP
Ellery, William Rhode Island Newport, RI 12/22/1727 2/15/1820 Lawyer/Merchant CO
Floyd, William New York Brookhaven, NY 12/17/1734 8/4/1821 Land Speculator PB
Franklin, Benjamin Pennsylvania Boston, MA 1/17/1706 4/17/1790 Scientist/Printer DE
Gerry, Elbridge Massachusetts Marblehead, MA 7/17/1744 11/23/1814 Merchant EP
Gwinnett, Button Georgia Down Hatherley, England 1735 5/15/1777 Merchant/Plantation Owner EP
Hall, Lyman Georgia Wallingford, CT 4/12/1724 10/19/1790 Physician/Minister CO
Hancock, John Massachusetts Quincy, MA 1/12/1737 10/8/1793 Merchant CO
Harrison, Benjamin Virginia Charles City Co., VA 4/7/1726 4/24/1791 Plantation Owner/Farmer ?
Hart, John New Jersey Hunterdon Co., NJ 1711 5/11/1779 Land Owner PB
Hewes, Joseph North Carolina Kingston, NJ 1/23/1730 10/10/1779 Merchant EP
Heyward Jr., Thomas South Carolina St. Helena Parrish, SC 7/28/1746 3/6/1809 Lawyer/Plantation Owner ?
Hooper, William North Carolina Boston, MA 6/17/1742 10/14/1790 Lawyer EP
Hopkins, Stephen Rhode Island Providence, RI 3/7/1707 4/13/1785 Merchant ?
Hopkinson, Francis New Jersey Philadelphia, PA 10/2/1737 5/9/1791 Lawyer/Musician EP
Huntington, Samuel Connecticut Windham, CT 7/3/1731 1/5/1796 Lawyer CO
Jefferson, Thomas Virginia Albermarle Co., VA 4/13/1743 7/4/1826 Lawyer/Plantation Owner DE
Lee, Francis Lightfoot Virginia Mt. Pleasant, VA 10/14/1734 1/11/1797 Plantation Owner ?
Lee, Richard Henry Virginia Stratford, VA 1/20/1732 6/19/1794 Plantation Owner/Merchant ?
Lewis, Francis New York Llandaff, Wales 3/21/1713 12/30/1802 Merchant ?
Livingston, Philip New York Albany, NY 1/15/1716 6/12/1778 Merchant PB
Lynch Jr., Thomas South Carolina Prince George's Parrish, SC 8/5/1749 1779 Lawyer ?
McKean, Thomas Delaware Chester Co., PA 3/19/1735 6/24/1817 Lawyer PB
Middleton, Arthur South Carolina Charleston, SC 6/26/1742 1/1/1787 Plantation Owner ?

Edited 10/8/2015 20:46:04
The Rebel Flag.: 10/8/2015 21:01:03

[Wolf] Relmcheatham
Level 56
speaking of that, i fly the 3rd national confederacy flag in the name of Thomas Jonathan Jackson (Stonewall Jackson)
The Rebel Flag.: 10/9/2015 00:04:56

Darth Darth Binks
Level 56
Hey, if Britain's king wasn't so bad with managing colonies, then the American Revolution would never have happened.

The Southern States were afraid of the Republican party winning the election and then abolishing slavery, which they thought to be against state rights. In reality, Abraham Lincoln did not want to abolish slavery, but to stop it from spreading to new states, but the South was a little quick to the trigger.
The Rebel Flag.: 10/9/2015 01:54:48

Eklipse {TJC}
Level 57
The Southern States were afraid of the Republican party winning the election and then abolishing slavery, which they thought to be against state rights. In reality, Abraham Lincoln did not want to abolish slavery, but to stop it from spreading to new states, but the South was a little quick to the trigger.

The most ironic thing about the Civil War is that slavery was already declining anyways. The South was beginning to finally industrialize, new cotton growing land was hard to find, and the whole institution was becoming more trouble than it was worth. The slaves probably would of been freed within a few decades.

The entire war is the fault of rich planter elite who couldn't see that their system was already doomed anyways.
The Rebel Flag.: 10/9/2015 05:45:02

Des {TJC}
Level 58
@Martin, I truly doubt that. You can't control something a full ocean away. Look at India, or South Africa.

Eventually everyone becomes free
The Rebel Flag.: 10/9/2015 08:43:21

Tiny Koala
Level 56


The Southern States were afraid of the Republican party winning the election and then abolishing slavery, which they thought to be against state rights.

is a myth.

In the declaration of causes of secession for the various states that I linked above, the reasons for secession are laid out quite clearly.

For example, here's Georgia:

For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slave-holding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery. They have endeavored to weaken our security, to disturb our domestic peace and tranquility, and persistently refused to comply with their express constitutional obligations to us in reference to that property, and by the use of their power in the Federal Government have striven to deprive us of an equal enjoyment of the common Territories of the Republic.

I want to talk about this:

"persistently refused to comply with their express constitutional obligations to us in reference to that property"

What constitutional obligations?

South Carolina:

We assert that fourteen of the States have deliberately refused, for years past, to fulfill their constitutional obligations, and we refer to their own Statutes for the proof.

The Constitution of the United States, in its fourth Article, provides as follows: "No person held to service or labor in one State, under the laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in consequence of any law or regulation therein, be discharged from such service or labor, but shall be delivered up, on claim of the party to whom such service or labor may be due."

The northern states would not capture escaped slaves and return then to their "owners" in the south, as was their obligation under the Constitution of the United States, as interpreted by the legislature of South Carolina.

Or, from later in the same document:

has been aided in some of the States by elevating to citizenship, persons who, by the supreme law of the land, are incapable of becoming citizens; and their votes have been used to inaugurate a new policy, hostile to the South, and destructive of its beliefs and safety.

To summarize:

Two of the major complaints of the southern states were that the Northern states would not always returned escaped slaves, and that they were allowing some black people to vote.

States rights, anyone?

Edited 10/9/2015 08:45:37
The Rebel Flag.: 10/9/2015 10:08:33

The Man Who'd Buy Spain
Level 29
What I said is not incorrect.
The Rebel Flag.: 10/9/2015 10:19:54

Tiny Koala
Level 56
Granted - but fear of abolition was not the direct cause of the secession of the southern states, and the myth is that the southern states put more emphasis on states rights than on states obligations.

The seceding states supported the right of slave-states to allow the practice of slavery, and supported the obligation of non-slave-states to regulate citizenship and voting rights on the basis of race, to repress abolitionist groups, and to facilitate the practice of slavery in slave-states by capturing and returning escaped slaves.
The Rebel Flag.: 10/9/2015 10:43:56

The Man Who'd Buy Spain
Level 29

And the idea of a Republican in office is the straw that would break the camel's back.
The Rebel Flag.: 10/9/2015 10:55:06

Tiny Koala
Level 56
Yes, you're right.
The Rebel Flag.: 10/9/2015 13:14:29

Eklipse {TJC}
Level 57
State's rights was part of the war, in the sense that the Southern states relied up that concept to justify themselves breaking away from the country. Slavery was the driving force behind it, but you aren't going to get that 50%+ poor, non-slave owning population to fight for slaves they don't have.

The common soldier fought for state's rights, to defend their homeland,etc. (Heck. Even Robert E. Lee would of been a northern general had Virginia not seceded)

You can probably argue that slavery was the primary reason behind the war, but it wasn't the singular only reason that every person who fought for the CSA possessed.
The Rebel Flag.: 10/9/2015 14:33:08

Tiny Koala
Level 56

State's rights was part of the war, in the sense that the Southern states relied up that concept to justify themselves breaking away from the country.

Read the primary documents - prior to the war, the main right that the slave states were interested in was their right to extend slavery to a fair share of the Territories that would later become new states.

They were far more concerned with state's obligations - they would deny non-slave-states the right to decide who could vote in a national election, the right to decide how much energy to put into capturing escaped slaves, and the right to decide whether to prosecute abolitionists who were guilty of breaking the law in slave-states by encouraging slaves to escape, and informing them of resources and networks of people who would assist them if the were able to escape.

State's rights became the "reason" for the "War Between the States" well after the war was over. This was always propaganda, and never the truth (it is also what I learned when I was a child, but later discovered to be a lie).

It is true that only about 1/3 of white southern families owned any slaves, and the vast majority of slaves were held by a small minority of very wealthy plantation owners. However, the doctrine of white supremacy was fundamental to the Confederacy (read the Cornerstone speech, for instance), and was accepted by many southerners who did not personally own slaves.

Beyond this, Rommel was a decent man and an exceptional commander. I do not, however, fly a Nazi flag to celebrate him.
The Rebel Flag.: 10/9/2015 15:40:03

An abandoned account
Level 56
At you don't have issues with flags like they do in Northern Ireland:

Edited 10/9/2015 19:04:31
The Rebel Flag.: 10/9/2015 16:25:45

Luna {TJC}
Level 56
Meh it a flag that meant something a long time ago but retains little of that meaning now...

Just gonna leave this hear

In dixie land I'm born to travel
Early on that frosty morn
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