EA&O is good as it is, just make it 0%SR or 0%WR and it's fine

quoting from Master Ryiro:

also idk from where you get the idea that players don't join because there are too many templates for them to handle,that has never been an issue
they don't join because of the bad templates,not because of too many templates

The number of templates is the reason why I'm not so much interested in this ladder. Here's what I wrote in the previous discussion ("Is the Real Time Ladder dying")

Some templates are good, some are bad (as it's said above); but I think the idea of having 10 templates is the real problem here. This is a big number; you have to spend great, considerable effort so as to become an average player in all of them. I, personally, can claim to be so only in 2-3 of them; this means I haven't even started working on the other 7-8. It gives me great stress to join the ladder, because I'm afraid to find myself playing on a setting I know I haven't even get used to.

If the total number of templates was 5 or 6 instead of 10, I'd be more motivated to say to myself "Whatever man, just join and see what you can do!"

So you have at least one example :)

(https://www.warlight.net/Forum/113841-real-time-ladder-dying )

EA&O is good as it is, just make it 0%SR or 0%WR and it's fine

I join Sephiroth on this.

seriously it disturbs my mind when some of you try to explain all the bullshit you wrote earlier when you haven't even played a single game on the ladder so far
i mean,wtf?

To be honest, I think the RT ladder is less popular partially because it is RT. I personally don't play on it because I have other games that I would like to play for an hour or so at a time. After a game of CS:GO, however, I love coming back to Warlight and taking my turn in any available multi-day game.

I became really bored with spending 30 minutes matched up against slammy, Beren, CONQUISTADORS, or any of the many players clearly way above my skill level.

Edited 10/25/2015 19:23:47

Well then don't play the RT ladder, and to people who don't play, please stop complaining. I was a noob on all the templates, but it only took me a couple of months to be good/average on ALL of them: and I'm pretty sure that if a new one showed up, I would have no trouble adapting after a few games.
Its just a question of pratice, so don't complain about the "huge number" of Rt templates because if you are, you are not a good player. Ofc you can complain about the bad ones, and if everyone does hate one, ofc it should be removed.

But not everyone hates luck, and I'm pretty sure leaving luck templates on the Rt ladder is a good showcase of how people have to adapt themselves to situations. And if you put everything in SR, its not going to be very fun: imo, rt ladder is there to experiment and test situations you aren't entirely familiar with, and only then can you truly progress.

Like I said, 1vs1 ladder is different from the rt ladder, so don't compare the two? In fact diversity is what Warlight needs, and a huge pool of templates is much better than a select few.

You look bad when you say Beren is way above your skill level. He probably just got lucky :P

I am generally a fan of more templates as long as they are generally accepted to be strategic rather than less, since it makes it less important to be an expert on a specific template.

And MotD, you're just jealous that he didn't single you out.

+1 Master Ryiro

The biggest problem for 1v1 ladder is lack of activity and lack of new players. Personally I'd think that in order to make rt ladder alive, changes in terms of restrictions are needed, my suggestion would be to allow any player with a confirmed e-mail address to play regardless of level and even encourage new players in some way to try their luck on rt ladder as one of their first exxperiences. Almost all major e-sports are dynamic in terms of gameplay, which in warlight terms is rt play. Of course it just has a different aspect than multiday games, but I strongly believe at some point rt games will have to be prioratised.

In terms of construction and rating system it is by far superior to any other ladder, promoting more active players and being "stallingproof". When it comes to templates I distinctly remember being very sceptical when I joined rt ladder for the first time, but the more I played it, the more I enjoyed the variety of different templates despite being initially hostile towards local deployments idea for example. The other thing that surprised me is even with slightly weird settings, like diplo cards, the amount of luck you can manage and the amount of skill required to play is not that different from more standardised 1v1 templates (with very few exceptions). That may be, because it is extremely hard to balance a 1v1 template due to various reasons (picking dominant strategies A>B are often game ending and leads at some point to multiple rock-paper-scissors scenarios). Overall if at some point Fizzer decides it's time to change sth, here is my advice in terms of templates:
1) introduce new templates up to 20-25 total
2) ask experienced players for a coherent list of different strategic templates
3) introduce a veto system and give 2-3 vetoes for every player, that way if you dislike specifically 2-3 templates, you can (but don't have to!) veto them out when you search for a game.

Still, I guess it's almost impossible to make a completely balanced 1v1 template, so I'm always more inclined to experiment with "weird" settings in 1v1 templates rather than team games. Also, people who now say EA&O is so bad, tend to forget we started with an ffa and autodistribution templates :)

I like the veto idea. Starcraft 2 allows you to veto a couple maps in team ladders and I like that. The matchup system would just pick from the templates not vetoed by either player.

Nice contribution, szew. Thanks.

It also gives Fizzer a nice snapshot of what templates might need work. If a majority of people are vetoing a couple templates, you know people are not happy with them overall. Then you can replace them in a future update if it continues to trend that way.

It is always nice as a developer to have that built in feedback mechanism.

The problem is not just the templates, its also with the rating system too and how winning against a very low rated opponent loses you points. If there could be restrictions on who you are paired up with (since im assuming it is more work to change the algorithm which distributes the points), would help games where winning still loses you points which isn't what a competitive ladder should be.

For templates i would prefer around 15 where the least favourite 5 are replaced.

The templates overall i do not think are too bad at the moment. Just turkey LD sometimes is really not suited to real time. With EA and O can produce some good games, but maybe 0% WR would be better.

Luck on EA&O is horrible. You miss a 5v3 attack early, game over

@buns

Again, I think it's a problem of a deserted ladder. If there are not more than 4-5 people at any one point, you will be forced to play some random low rated players, since it pairs from the bottom up. If rt ladder becomes very popular and there are 20+ people at all times (which is not unreasonable considering how many open games there are at any time) the pairing will be better. The rating system is by far the best one on the site, it is the lack of players and pairing system that you might be dissapointed with.

Edited 10/26/2015 20:40:38

@szeweningen what makes a rating system good? I agree with you completely, it all goes back to a lack of good templates.

@MotD I looked back at the game and realized I was a terrible player 1.5 years ago. That game went beyond my usual skill drop from playing RT. I believe at that time my strategy in strat 1v1 was "Pick Scandinavia or Central America." Even worse, that game was LD, a feature I had never seen before, and my "cumulative luck" was over 3 points below his. Perfect storm of awful player and awful situation that let Beren crush me.

the pre-veto idea is pretty nice, giving the player option to avoid the templates they hate playing, and the devs a clear idea on what templates are less popular and needing to be replaced on next rotation.

Edited 10/27/2015 01:26:57

Do RT games still give less points?