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Opinion: All Diplo/RP games should be unranked: 12/10/2015 22:33:16

Chinball
Level 51
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Here's my reasoning:

1) In a practice game, players are focused on RPing their characters accurately (which could still involve winning) and generally care more about the fun of the game than winning.

2)In a ranked game, this changes. Most players (generally) join a ranked game for the points, with the expectation of winning. And this affects their mentality of how they play. Instead of focused on RPing to their character accurately, they start RPing to win instead. This can take some fun away from those who genuinely just want to RP and ruin a game.

3) Lastly, it makes voting to end annoying since there's usually just one guy who wants the points too much to quit.


Any thoughts/criticism?
Opinion: All Diplo/RP games should be unranked: 12/10/2015 22:36:20


Lolicon love 
Level 56
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well kindda unrelated but it took me ages to find out that games were under either ranked or practice i always played diplos and ffa for the lulz.
Opinion: All Diplo/RP games should be unranked: 12/10/2015 23:05:06


OnlyThePie
Level 53
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I agree, but this goes along with the "Make diplomacy a gamemode" issue in that you can't just make a game unranked by checking the name for the word "Diplo" or "RP" or "Diplomacy" it would need an entire setting, which too many people seem to object to for it to work.
Opinion: All Diplo/RP games should be unranked: 12/10/2015 23:10:14

Chinball
Level 51
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too many people seem to object to for it to work.

My understanding is that Frizzer just doesn't want to take time to do it
Opinion: All Diplo/RP games should be unranked: 12/11/2015 00:12:21


MightySpeck (a Koala) 
Level 57
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Definitely agree. Diplo isn't about the points. It's about pretending to be someone you aren't (but that's just my opinion) and when it is a ranked game there are too many warmongers and PEs ruining the fun :/.

Also on the topic of diplo, I don't like playing real world diplos, as most people have no idea what the nation they are playing as.




So if Fizzer implements a diplo game mode, I really hope it is mandatory to be unranked, in the sense of points for levels.
Opinion: All Diplo/RP games should be unranked: 12/11/2015 00:39:09


NinjaNic 
Level 57
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Or... Add a whole new stats category for diplo win rate. But I agree, no points should be given for a diplo.
Opinion: All Diplo/RP games should be unranked: 12/11/2015 01:13:10


[ESP] Pablo García
Level 58
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I always make them ranked, bit only because I forget to turn points off :$

Anyway, as long as it is not an open game, it doesn't really matter, I think.
Opinion: All Diplo/RP games should be unranked: 12/11/2015 01:40:34


Cata Cauda 
Level 57
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Would there be betrayals when you cant gain anything... I must admit the fact that you can gain something gives a nice effect to alliances... becuase you cant trust anyone....

Edited 12/11/2015 01:40:51
Opinion: All Diplo/RP games should be unranked: 12/11/2015 02:02:33

[wolf]japan77
Level 56
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For open games or test games, I would definitely advocate no points, but certain clans are built around this, and as such for those clans, the points do make sense.

As most people playing are reasonable and not extremly point hungry.

Edited 12/11/2015 02:02:54
Opinion: All Diplo/RP games should be unranked: 12/11/2015 03:59:48


Fleecemaster 
Level 59
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People who are obsessed with winning to the point where they don't have fun anymore bother and confuse me.

The issue with no points is Diplomacy-only players wouldn't be able to level up and access Custom Scenario hosting.

By the way, one the things we are developing is being able to enforce rules, such as not being able to attack allies and not being able to attack a player without declaring, etc.

It's going to be client-side, so it should bypass Fizzer entirely, so we won't need him to change anything in the game to make it work.

Is that something that the Diplo community be interested in? Personally I'm getting sick of PEs ruining games, but if the rules are enforced would they truly be Diplo games?

Edited 12/11/2015 04:06:19
Opinion: All Diplo/RP games should be unranked: 12/11/2015 04:45:01

[wolf]japan77
Level 56
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That would be interesting.
Opinion: All Diplo/RP games should be unranked: 12/11/2015 05:10:57


Fleecemaster 
Level 59
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Yeah, that would be interesting! Best review ever! I'm quoting you on all the launch day posters! ^_^
Opinion: All Diplo/RP games should be unranked: 12/11/2015 05:36:48


Pulsey
Level 56
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Pretty pointless idea. The game creator can choose for it to be ranked or unranked depending on the style of gameplay they want.
Opinion: All Diplo/RP games should be unranked: 12/11/2015 06:26:12

Dublin Warrior
Level 40
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I rarely bother with diplo games anymore,
but I especially avoid ranked diplo games...

Thus staying away from a stressful experience,
and also doing my part for the demand-side of the equation. :-D

Edited 12/11/2015 06:29:05
Opinion: All Diplo/RP games should be unranked: 12/11/2015 06:52:49


Fleecemaster 
Level 59
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I usually play with them as ranked, I honestly don't mind them as practise, but honestly, I find that some players are arseholes no matter which it is, I don't think it makes a difference, only playing with better players makes a difference, and that's what my black list is for ;)
Opinion: All Diplo/RP games should be unranked: 12/11/2015 07:15:40


Arcturus
Level 54
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there is the problem that, Diplo-heavy players want to create custom scenario and need a lot of points to do it. anyway i find rule-breakers, booted players and quitters far worse then those who act greedy to get points. i think we need more severe punishment against being booted.
a diplomacy setting in the creation of the game is however not needed, unless you have a way to enforce the diplo-rules on a game.
Opinion: All Diplo/RP games should be unranked: 12/11/2015 11:41:37


Fleecemaster 
Level 59
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I assume that would be the point?

But... If the rules are enforced would they truly be Diplo games?
Opinion: All Diplo/RP games should be unranked: 12/11/2015 11:56:34


Varakreivi
Level 56
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I guess it depends if the game is more diplo or RP orientated. "There can be only one" suits some hc diplo struggles, but is not very suitable to real world rp scenarios.

I think one way to solve it would be the possibility to make teams during the game, and to share the victory points within those teams. Of course there are many ways to exploit that kind of rule, but on the other hand people who just want exp points have ways of doing it already.
Opinion: All Diplo/RP games should be unranked: 12/11/2015 22:38:41

Chinball
Level 51
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Fleece, your idea of making enforceable rules on diplo would be amazing. PEs are probably the biggest ruiners of game, definitely surpassing greedy diplo players..
Opinion: All Diplo/RP games should be unranked: 12/11/2015 23:55:52


Fleecemaster 
Level 59
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Yeah, I agree... We're a long way off, but that's one of my personal goals in the project :)

One of the things we won't even be able to do client-side is change how points are given out. If it's a "FFA" we cannot change it to a team of 3 winning and sharing points, for example. Best we can do is make the game auto-vote to end once certain conditions are met, say, if 3 allies are the last players remaining.

Obviously, that means no points though, shame but that's why best we can hope for with what we have atm.
Opinion: All Diplo/RP games should be unranked: 12/12/2015 01:04:39


Zenvue
Level 54
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If a team sticks together from the beginning of the game to the end of the game, chances are they wont declare war on each other but they might surrender to one person or vote to end.

I think the vote to end thing if all players left are allies is a good idea but that is just my opinion.
Opinion: All Diplo/RP games should be unranked: 12/12/2015 01:06:30


Bluepotato
Level 52
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I guess you could make a custom scenario lotto after the (practice) diplo concludes, where the "winning team" has the valuable territory. That only addresses the problem if there is a "winning team", though.
Opinion: All Diplo/RP games should be unranked: 12/12/2015 01:56:48

Lmao Zedong of the Broviet Onion
Level 48
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sorry for being the only person who thinks this, but I like PEs being there because they change the whole course of he game ad make it all eird and stuf
Opinion: All Diplo/RP games should be unranked: 12/12/2015 02:22:06


Fleecemaster 
Level 59
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Well, Zedong, your opinion is valid. In my experience I think you can get PEs whether a game is both ranked or practise, and some PEs don't always do it to "win" but sometimes just to, as you say "make it all eird and stuf"

But yes, obviously a Diplomacy with enforced rules would make it very difficult to have a "PE player" but then the option would still be available for games where PEs are still possible (just a FFA with rules, as we have now). I suppose that's what I mean when I ask "Would it still be a Diplo?" I suppose the answer is yes, but a different kind, not having PEs could potentially change the dynamic considerably, and maybe even make it quite stale for some players. But for the more heavy-roleplay type player it may well suit them quite well.

Saying that, a game could still contain a player that can "declare on everyone" which is pretty similar to a PE anyway, but it would just be within the rules of the Diplomacy still, so wait a turn before attacking or whatever...

Bluepotato, that's actually a genius idea which I hadn't thought of, thanks for that, I will certainly keep that in mind, I think that's something we would certainly be able to implement with the system we're building :)

Though the thought does occur to me... If we create what would essentially be enforced "rigged" lotteries, there could be room for potential abuse there for "instant-leveling" or even just back to square one with players ganging up and playing to "win" which we would have to be extremely careful about avoiding...
Opinion: All Diplo/RP games should be unranked: 12/12/2015 03:14:57

M. Poireau
Level 53
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Every "diplo" game is different.

And, therefore, each requires different settings and rules.

Every game creator should:

a) Be absolutely clear about what their game is about, and whether "winning" is one of its goals.

b) Use appropriate settings for those goals. If the game is not intended to be FAIR and COMPETITIVE, it should be unranked, absolutely.
Opinion: All Diplo/RP games should be unranked: 12/12/2015 03:26:27


TBest 
Level 59
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"I guess you could make a custom scenario lotto after the (practice) diplo concludes, where the "winning team" has the valuable territory. That only addresses the problem if there is a "winning team", though."

Technically speaking, that would be against WL, rules. (rigged lotto games.) If you call it something else, (ex. winners dinner) and nobody complains you should be fine. But DO call it something else.


EDIT: Wait, you are going to use a client site. So perhaps the WL rules don't apply. Nvm me.

Edited 12/12/2015 03:28:28
Opinion: All Diplo/RP games should be unranked: 12/12/2015 03:40:43


Fleecemaster 
Level 59
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I assumed because it was just a random game among those players it would be ok? I mean, technically all the players could just surrender to the "winner" in a completely balanced "lottery" game, the thing I figured is that as long as coins aren't involved it should be fine?

What are the rules on gaining points? If say, I set up a program that would automatically enter you into a set of games with other players also wanting to level, and it essentially auto-leveled you all up to level 50 through a series of wins/loses with those other players. Is that against ToS? It would work the same as playing 1,000 lotteries, but it would just be automated for you... I think it's a good time to be clear on this... I don't want to go breaking any rules I'm unaware of...
Opinion: All Diplo/RP games should be unranked: 12/17/2015 09:34:57


ℳℛᐤƬrαńɋℰ✕
Level 55
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So Diplomacy games should not give points nor reflect in winning statistics or be separated, but lottery should be included as standard?

The problem does not lie inherently in game system, but peoples naive belief in points, levels and winning statistics.

I would like to see Different Game modes highlighted and filtered on Dashboard Open-Game section to make it easier to understand/filterwhat one looks for. Making a difference in points calculation or any other form of petty achievements you should save the time and start playing the game for strategy or opt for some different senseless clicking game. I think something like that could suit you instead: http://www.kongregate.com/games/barniel/heroin-hero

But if you have "insert your personality disorder here" and need constant feedback from PC by gaining fictive points, levels and this in even senseless form like Lottery or from unbalanced diplos to your benefit etc, then there are actually a lot of other "better games" to feed your flaws. Warlight would be perfectly fine without them - as I truly hope there are still people left who see it as Fully customizable Strategy Game and not just Level Up! But on marketing side - its rather that with points because as we have proved people play games mostly due to certain affects from external world disorders - and constant feedback from Games offer them satisfaction, which makes them addicted.

There is nothing wrong with Ranks, points and levels as long as they are given in strict and controlled environment and rules - like 1v1 Ladder that reflect the true state of Skill and standing in particular Templates and Tournaments one has participated. Its all for introducing and advancing competitive play. If you judge player by his stats in Open room games, you only incline towards prejudice.

I am not going into what is a Diplomacy game or how it should be played or what it is in Warlight. As stated above it can be balanced or totally un-balanced (actually same applies to standard games as well - but in lesser form). The bottomline is Points in this case in uncontrolled environment as well stats are meaningless! They have never been useful determining someones skill, experience. So why take them seriously at all?

The only concern are the prerequisites. As people use games-played to end, level cap and win ratios for entering? So do I - but I know they never are fool-proof. Its not perfect, but its all we got! I would prefer better system - but thus far all talk and ideas over it has not raised any attention nor games Developers liking here!

Edited 12/17/2015 09:40:38
Opinion: All Diplo/RP games should be unranked: 12/17/2015 10:19:24


Fleecemaster 
Level 59
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Best thing to do is invite your friends/clan. That's what I do :)
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