Sooo...i know that there are a lot of religious people on this forum, and maybe you can help me out here. Usually atheists like me ends up educating themselves on religion, either while in the process of abandonning religion, or just to be able to hold an argument when talking to religious people, wich is bound to happen in this world we live in. To that end, i watch a lot of debates, usually involving an atheist vs a religious guy from one of the 3 abrahamic religions. But sometimes even religion vs religion are fun to watch, for example old earth vs young earth creationism debates can be fun (if i'm high enough)

Tonight i've watched what was, in my view, a debate where the atheist (Sam Harris) really destroyed the theist (William Lane Craig) like i have never seen before (especially considering the level of recognition these guys have in their respective camps). Now of course i am biased, i usually think the atheist win these debates because i usually agree more with the atheist, but it is not always as clear cut as in this debate, and even sometimes the theist makes a such a good case for himself that i would consider calling it a tie :D (david wolpe for exemple is really good, and i would even say that tarik ramadan did a very good job vs hitchen)
Anyway, here is the debate i watched tonight:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqaHXKLRKzg

So my request for the religious people here is this: could give me the link of a debate where, in your view, the theist completely destroyed the atheist?

Just to be clear, i'm not looking to start a debate on religion here, i'm genuinely interested in what would a religious person consider to be a clear win for the religious apologist vs the atheist. Also, who do you consider to be the best (insert your religion here) debater?

Edited 12/13/2015 04:33:35

the theist completely destroyed the atheist?

I think you might want to be more specific here. I doubt you're interested in debates between well-prepared theists and unprepared atheists. William Lane Craig (the same one) is usually way more prepared than his opponents, and tends to come off as a strong debater against less-prepared opponents. He kinda does it for a living, so I'm sure fans of his could find lots of examples of him 'destroying' a random atheist. Well, maybe that's what you're looking for, I'm not sure.

well the well-prepared vs less-prepared can be a valid point, or a cheap excuse. (i'm sure one can argue that WLG wasn't well prepared vs harris and thats why he did poorly). Obviously it would be better to link a debate where the 2 opponents are of the same level of recognition, but i'll take whatever people send me. But i know what you mean, i think i have watched only one debate where the atheist (actually i'm not even sure he was atheist, it was more of an evolution vs creationism debate) did a very very poor job at defending evolution versus a creationist guy, but the "debate" was in a 6th grader class room, and the 6th graders in the audience did a better job at challenging the creationist than the "debater" who's job it was.

More importantly, i am interested in a debate where religious people watch it and think: ok, my guy was right every step of the way. As in i'm more interested in what people consider a convincing advocate for their side. If it is just that the other guy can't align 2 words in a row without making a fool of himself, i'm less interested

Edited 12/13/2015 16:53:29

It's kind of ironic that we're having a debate about how people prepare for debates.

Did you guys prepare for this debate? Did one guy prepare a little and the other a lot? Becausethen this would be a fucking genius thread.

Now of course i am biased

M'kay, I'll be biased too, by showing this

madworldnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/liberal-logic-101-480.jpg

Well, there ya go Hitchslap ^^^. An example of an argument a theist finds convincing. Prepare to be underwhelmed. Reminds me of Ray Comfort: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXLqDGL1FSg

hahaha that's a classic. The first time i saw this clip i thought the guy was an atheist trying to ridicule religious thinking. Turns out ray comfort was serious, but i honestly don't think many christians endorse this kind of argument. The christians in my familly actually hate creationists more than i do, because of the way they make religious people look stupid and crazy.

edit: @empire of kilos i think your picture is actually funny, it is innaccurate as hell but there is some good comedy material in there. read lawrence krauss if you want to know how an atheist can believe that our univers comes from "nothing". You'll see that there is a little more to it.

Edited 12/13/2015 16:52:11

Debates should be about persuasion and trying to convince a segment of people to change their views. Showing you videos of theists "winning" would be pointless because I don't see you changing your views.

The christians in my familly actually hate creationists more than i do, because of the way they make religious people look stupid and crazy.


exactly this. i'm not religious myself, but i can understand religious People. beeing religious is absolutely ok. but those creationists are just ridiculous.

@JaiBharat909
I am perfectly capable and willing to change my views if there is compelling evidences that my views are wrong. I don't think such evidences exist, but i'd be happy to be proven wrong. Why don't you see me changing my views? Is it because you think that there isn't a good enough argument out there capable of it, or is it because you think that i am a close-minded deluded prick incapable of changing his mind on anything? The first reason would be quite depressing for you if you are a theist, since you give up the intellectual conversation rather quickly, and the second reason is just uncalled for. Plus this thread gives you the opportunity show to everyone reading it the best argument you think there is in favor of theism, therefore it is not just about convincing me, it is also a plateform for you to convince people that theism is correct (if you are a theist that is...). I am not even asking you to have a debate about theism vs atheism, i am merely asking for a link of a good debate where you think the theist have the best arguments. Apparently linking a video is already too much effort for you to defend your ideas, but paradoxically you take the time to write a post on this thread to inform me that you don't want to...wierd

Edited 12/13/2015 16:50:59

This forum realtors likes atheism vs theism. My question is why don't we argue other things for a change?

@Hitchslap - I'm not a member of the 3 Abrahamic religions so I doubt you'd find much interest there. Plus there are not enough high quality debates between Hindu Theists and Atheists. I could give you a list of scriptures, but I doubt you'd have the intellectual or cultural capability to understand Hindu metaphysical notions. That being said you did say you were biased...that kind of implies you're opinions have already formed for the pro-Atheist side. That is completely fine. I have tons of atheist friends and I'm not trying to belittle you. Just saying the act of watching a debate is mute at that point.

I am perfectly capable and willing to change my views if there is compelling evidences that my views are wrong.

Oh boy, how classic... the science supporter nonsense.

"Look at me, I'm an open minded Canadian. I studied all kinds of religions without the slightest bias and after comparing the evidence in a strictly scientific way I came to the conclusion that evolutionism has it right."

Well, you know what? I do believe that you believe in your own claim. Of course everyone (except for yourself) reading your posts should see immediately how delusional you are about yourself.

The christians in my familly actually hate creationists more than i do, because of the way they make religious people look stupid and crazy.
Never heard the term 'hate' before in a scientific context.

@Jai
i don't know anyone who doesn't have an opinion on the matter, wether he admits it or not, and if you think watching a debate is pointless just because you already have an opinion on the matter before the debate then you really don't understand what debates are about. Or what conversations on any topic are about for that matter. Debates are all about challenging your opinions and prejudices, by listening to new arguments, by going indepth into a topic in order to have a better understanding of it. This is how opinions works, if you don't look for more information and knowledge, then of course chances are you are going to stay with your opinions and pregudices, you just stay in your own echo chamber

hahaha that's a classic. The first time i saw this clip i thought the guy was an atheist trying to ridicule religious thinking. Turns out ray comfort was serious, but i honestly don't think many christians endorse this kind of argument.

The guy is bloody rich and lives in a mansion. Don't underestimate the power of stupid arguments on everyday humans who aren't inoculated with a skeptical mindset.

@Hitchslap - That's exactly what I'm saying the point of a debate is!!! You've obviously watched tons of Theists vs. Atheist debates and you've said none have convinced you. I just publicly voiced my opinion that no theist argument would suddenly convert you to a man of religion or God. In general society is way to polarized for people to suddenly switch over to radically new philosophical maxims. Again I can give you a list of hindu scriptures to read that may influence your belief in a higher power, but your response makes me believe you're more interested in debating your defense of debates then in finding a source of information for changing your views on religion. I would start with the Vachanamrut. Here's an english pdf with a glossary at the back if you're interested:

http://www.bhujmandir.org/upload/documents/scriptures/vachanamrut/vachnamrut%20english.pdf


Besides you gloss over the fact that a belief in religion is in itself an act of faith. There won't be statics or numbers to prove it. Experiences in your life have a better chance of convincing you than a debate. Trust me. Even I used to be an atheist.

then in finding a source of information for changing your views on religion.

Does anyone watch debates or does anything "for changing his opinion"? Of course not, this is ridiculus. You listen to debates, or read books, or watch videos, documentaries, etc, FOR INFORMATION. With the information you find, you can have informed opinions, more nuanced opinions, and if new information makes you change your mind about something, then so be it. No-one watches debates so that they make you change radically your opinion, people watch debates to have material to think about and upon wich they can build a more sofisticated views.

Anyway, thanks for the links. I think i'll chekc it out. I don't know much about hinduism, and this should be remedied. Also, as i understand, hinduism isn't a religion in the same sense as abrahamic religions. For example i hear there are many path possible in hinduism, most of them actually being atheistic...

I doubt you'd have the intellectual or cultural capability to understand Hindu metaphysical notions

the lesson here is to completely miss the point, try to steer the conversation to be about you personally, and to talk down to the other person. this is how you win all debates.

@Hitchslap

You could watch it for either reason really but all the start of your post could make me think of was. Every odd debate I'm a thesist every even debate I'm a atheist now that's what watching something to change your opinion should be like.

Edited 12/13/2015 23:18:03

I doubt you'd have the intellectual or cultural capability to understand Hindu metaphysical notions.

LMAO. Can we keep the Eastern metaphysics fetish out of this? Thanks. :)