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Nontrivial templates on the Duel (and related) map: 12/29/2015 19:23:27


(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 50
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Let's analyze what nontrivial templates can exist on the Duel map.

Facts:
1.Nobody takes or loses any territory until the game ends.
2.No cards other than those given at the beginning can be used, hence reinf cards that increase when turn number increases are useless.
3.Airlift, abandon, blockade, gift cards can not be used.
4.Multi-attacks are useless.
5.Deployment is completely trivial since you have only one territory.
6.Light and normal fogs are equivalent to no fog, dense heavy and complete fogs are equivalent, which on duel map we refer to as "complete fog".
7.Attack only and transfer only are useless.
8.Recon spy surveillance cards are equivalent, which on duel map we refer to as "recon cards".

Edited 12/29/2015 22:14:20
Nontrivial templates on the Duel (and related) map: 12/29/2015 20:08:57


Lord of Turnips
Level 57
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Complete fog has a possibility of not being useless if used with 70-60% attack to defense win rate as opposed to 60-70% defence to attack win rate.
Nontrivial templates on the Duel (and related) map: 12/29/2015 20:08:57


Lord of Turnips
Level 57
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Complete fog has a possibility of not being useless if used with 70-60% attack to defense win rate as opposed to 60-70% defence to attack win rate.
Nontrivial templates on the Duel (and related) map: 12/29/2015 21:08:11


Bayern München is the best!
Level 58
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Why cards cannot be used?
Why is no-split useless?
Nontrivial templates on the Duel (and related) map: 12/29/2015 21:15:59


Death 
Level 59
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The cards he named simply do not make sense on the map and you cannot get new cards since you're not capturing any territories. So only if some cards are given at the beginning you're actually able to use any.

No-split wouldn't really be useless though.

Complete fog and altered attack and defense rates could be a way, as Turnip said.
Nontrivial templates on the Duel (and related) map: 12/29/2015 21:49:46

M. Poireau
Level 53
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No-split isn't useless at all, but it does sound rather *uninteresting*.

As far as I can see the game comes down to two questions:

1. Do I attack this turn?
2. How many armies do I attack with?

No-split removes the second question altogether, leaving only the first.
Nontrivial templates on the Duel (and related) map: 12/29/2015 21:50:46


OxTheAutist 
Level 58
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use luck!

EDIT: 100% luck!

Edited 12/29/2015 21:50:55
Nontrivial templates on the Duel (and related) map: 12/29/2015 21:55:34


(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 50
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I agree that no-split is not useless.

What I believe is that nontrivial games on Duel map may be possible, but only as a mathematical exercise. Even the default setting has a strategy, namely not attacking until attacked (SR, no luck, default rates). Making it 70-60 might make the game "Let me attack first", just like lottery.

I have an idea which may also be trivial.
1. Complete fog.
2. Negative sanction cards.
3. Bomb cards.
4. Spy cards. This can be optional.
5. Diplo cards. This can be optional.

Edited 12/29/2015 22:06:41
Nontrivial templates on the Duel (and related) map: 12/29/2015 21:56:22

M. Poireau
Level 53
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Using Complete Fog gives a use for Reconnaissance cards, if that's desired. (Could combine well with high luck, as well.)
Nontrivial templates on the Duel (and related) map: 12/29/2015 21:57:37


(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 50
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Recon, spy and surveillance cards are equivalent. So we should only talk about one...:-)
The issue with high luck is that it will become lottery.
We need to avoid 1. Games that can only end by one player leaving the game and 2.Lottery games.

Edited 12/29/2015 22:11:41
Nontrivial templates on the Duel (and related) map: 12/29/2015 22:11:19


OxTheAutist 
Level 58
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Huge luck, and defensive kill rates!
Nontrivial templates on the Duel (and related) map: 12/29/2015 22:16:22

M. Poireau
Level 53
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Ok, here's an idea:

* Use an army cap.
* Have negative Sanctions or Reinforcement cards available, to increase your army size.

These are now only useable when you lose armies.

Combined with Fog, Spy cards, and such, as well as Order Delay/Priority (a set number of cards at the beginning of the game), and an asymmetrical attack/defense ratio, and you could have a bit of a game to play.

Players can temporarily increase their army size, but it's more effective to do so when you've lost a good number. This could lead to a decision matrix which is non-trivial, if you work out the right ratios.

Edited 12/29/2015 22:31:20
Nontrivial templates on the Duel (and related) map: 12/29/2015 22:17:05

awesomeusername
Level 58
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Using manual distribution, no-luck cycle, and 100% offensive kill rate (or any offensive kill rate significantly greater than the defensive kill rate) would make it a contest to see who could go the longest without picking. I think this is about as nontrivial as it gets.
Nontrivial templates on the Duel (and related) map: 12/29/2015 22:31:28


(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 50
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@awesomeusername If booted players are eliminated it will be almost the same as the booting game, just a little bit different, namely who can be the last without booting..

But wait..if booted players turn into AI is it beneficial to not even pick? What if both players are booted?
Nontrivial templates on the Duel (and related) map: 12/30/2015 19:32:34

wct
Level 56
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Interesting thread, Tabby. I had some thoughts on this a while back when Fleecemaster put up his Concept Template Contest with a special prize for nontrivial Duel templates, but nothing solid came to mind. I think you're on the right track, though, with jotting down all the different possible settings that could be useful and going from there. In particular, I think there's a good possibility with bomb cards, combined with some other income related cards like negative sanctions and reinforcements. The 'game' would be to try to get your stack big enough in comparison to the other stack, so that an attack would become 'efficient'. Army Cap might put in a little extra difficulty. Also, Diplomacy might be used to thwart the other guy's tactics.

Consider using various durations and strengths. E.g. if bomb card can be configured, then bombing at 10%, 25%, 50%, or whatever, combined with a similar negative sanctions card, like -0.10, -0.25, -0.50, etc. They would almost work like opposite actions (not quite! but sorta). And if you can play multiple at once, you get exponential compounding, which is mathematically interesting. Negative sanctions might have a short duration, and diplomacy might have long, or vice versa. If Diplomacy cards are used, they should be relatively rare, I think, to prevent games from being prolonged for a long time.
Nontrivial templates on the Duel (and related) map: 12/30/2015 20:28:48


(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 50
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@wct I'm not a member so I can not create games using bomb cards though I believe they are important. The reason negative sanctions are good is that you increase income this way.

Ultimately any game on the duel map may have a strategy simple enough that both sides will do the same thing..and the game degenerates to lottery or some form of booting game. The reason I do not want luck is that in some templates above the game is in essence lottery if both sides master the strategy.

I post settings that are useless so that people do not need to think about them any more which helps us figuring out what might work.

For example we can try:
No luck straight round complete fog no-luck cycle basic income 5 offensive rate 70% defensive rate 60%
5 reinf cards of size 20.
5 bomb cards.
5 sanction cards of percentage -100%
2 diplo cards that last 2 turns
3 order priority cards
3 order delay cards
4 recon cards

We can start here (test games!) and later decide whether we want army caps or some luck.

Thanks Lord of Turnips for giving me the idea of reverse rates.

Edited 12/30/2015 20:39:45
Nontrivial templates on the Duel (and related) map: 12/30/2015 20:48:55


(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 50
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Also the duel map must exists since it is the smallest Warlight map that can possibly exist. It has a lot of theoretical significance.

Although I believe ninja and pirate should be replaced by two circles called "1" and "2" and the map be renamed Two Territories. Then any other maps with two territories can be disallowed for the Two Territories map already exists.

Edited 12/30/2015 20:50:11
Nontrivial templates on the Duel (and related) map: 12/30/2015 21:05:37


DanWL
Level 61
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Might need no-luck cycle move order to decide a winner. If the kill rates are the same, there won't be a winner.
Nontrivial templates on the Duel (and related) map: 12/30/2015 21:27:27

M. Poireau
Level 53
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Tabby Juggernaut,

The reason I suggested the army cap earlier is that, otherwise, I don't see any incentive NOT to use all your Reinforcement and Sanctions cards on the very first turn. And that's hardly interesting, now is it?
Nontrivial templates on the Duel (and related) map: 12/30/2015 21:31:09


(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 50
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@M.Poireau There are 5 bomb cards. If you put everything out the other side may just bomb you. It is better to be bombed with few armies on the table than being bombed with a lot. The reason diplos exist is to postpone enemy attacks.

Oh I see in my setting people will use up all sanctions reinforcement order priority and bomb cards in turn 1 and attempt to eliminate the other side before any sanction or diplo can be effective. And the game either ends on turn 1 as lottery or degenerates into a renewed lottery later. Also since you have to let 1 army remain on your territory in essence equal rates benefits defense unless both rates are 100%.

For everything except for army caps mentioned here, both sides have in essence only one simple strategy which makes the game either a game of lottery or a game of booting.

Perhaps we do need an army cap. I will ask WL members in TJC for testing..Or is Fleecemaster going to do that?

Edited 12/30/2015 22:03:24
Nontrivial templates on the Duel (and related) map: 12/31/2015 03:15:00


(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 50
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Hi guys,
OxTheArtist and me are testing the duel map. Sanction cards and bomb cards have not been included yet. Till now it seems that you can figure out how to play and the result without even playing. We will put our test games here.
In the first test game OTA did not attack with enough, so I win. In the second he wins for no reason other than the fact that I picked territory earlier and we use the same strategy hence this template reduces to "who commit the last without getting booted" when both sides use the same fairly good strategy even though we have an army cap which may be too low.
Sincerely,
Tabby(Zephaniah)

Edited 12/31/2015 03:21:30
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