You say British people should be ashamed like the whole of Britain had done it when in fairness they hadn't.

Well the goddamn government is going to consider going through with something so stupid and hypocritical. I'd say that's something to be ashamed about. I'm ashamed of my government and people all the time.

One day, we will be able to detect people with fascism in their blood before they're born and we will be able to abort them.

Bush was a disaster (worldwide the US reputation worsened at lot with him, no need to explain why)

The wars in Iraq/Afgahnistan did damage U.S reputation signficantly, however it should be noted that those events were neither the first nor the last time the U.S has gotten involved in foreign affairs. It happened prior to Bush, and a similar policy was continued with Obama (Let's be realistic, Obama's foreign policy is pretty much "Diet Bush").

Let's also take note that under Bush the U.S actually had decent relations with Russia, thanks to Putin and Bush getting along fairly well for whatever reasons. Said U.S-Russian relations have fallen apart severely under the new administration.

Tell me why are you always talking about PC, each time someone is disagreeing with you guys?

We only talk about PC when people do the outrageous things like try to ban people just for having different political views. You always act as if political correctness isn't a problem because at the current time it benefits your point of view.

Someone saying that he will forbid all the muslims looking for a new life to come to the US just because he thinks every Muslim is a terrorist is utterly stupid,

The media always takes words out of context, and it seems you've bought into that. What Trump proposed was a temporary ban, and never once did he say that all Muslims are terrorists. What he essentially said was "I don't know which Muslims are terrorists and which ones aren't".

I don't support Trump or agree with him on this issue, but the crazy straw-men that Trump's opponents build get really annoying none the less.

God I thought one Bush was enough for you

The comparison of Bush to Trump isn't really valid. Bush would of never supported things like Trump's proposed Muslim ban, in fact Bush went out of his way prior to the Iraq war to state "Muslims are not our enemies" (Whether his policies actually reflected that or not is debatable but still).

seriously in Europe

The U.S is not Europe, it will never be Europe, many people here have no desire to become like Europe. Nearly in every topic you try to compare the U.S to Europe for some reason, and it usually comes around to you implying or outright stating that the European way of thinking is superior somehow.

Stop comparing Apples to Oranges.

So where are your ethics Man?

I don't see any ethics on Britain's part. I see blatant hypocrisy. Trump wants to ban people he doesn't agree with, the U.K wants to ban people they don't agree with. What's the difference?

and stop poorly argumenting with your PC thing each time someone disagree with you

Stop trying to silence people you disagree with using petty petitions and bans, and actually argue against them instead.

Also, you've already taken the assumption that everyone here agrees with Trump, which is a false assumption. Few if even any of us actually agree with Trump on this issue, but this is a matter of principle. It's about standing up for free speech and putting a stop to political correctness before it becomes too ingrained.

At the most basic level free speech is made to protect UNPOPULAR opinions, because nobody would ever try to censor what is "acceptable". Trump's words are indeed very offensive to many of us, but he was the right to say them because part of free speech is being able to say offensive things without getting banned or otherwise punished.

I really hope that the U.K parliament treats this so-called petition like the piece of trash that it is. Hopefully there's some sensible people in the U.K government who actually have a basic level of respect for freedom of speech. I'd probably lose all respect for Britain if this passed, which would be a shame because I really like the U.K and it sucks to see them become infested with political correctness.

Edited 1/6/2016 17:54:46

I support Trump.

The U.S is not Europe, it will never be Europe, many people here have no desire to become like Europe. Nearly in every topic you try to compare the U.S to Europe for some reason, and it usually comes around to you implying or outright stating that the European way of thinking is superior somehow.

+1 Million. Frickin brilliant...and well put I may add. This is the golden leg of the argumentation used by Canadians and Europeans to denounce American policies or positions they fundamentally disagree with. Its called cultural imperialism. If you think America is a failure or an undemocratic nation or a xenophobic nation precisely because we don't align ourselves perfectly with European philosophy, mores, and cultural attitudes then you inherently fail to understand the birth of America and what that historical narrative means to its people. You're elevating the position of Europe above America, an insultingly hypocritical action considering the supposed ethical and moral perch you stand upon and dictate to us what's right and wrong.

Edited 1/6/2016 18:47:40

Amen to Darth Darth, Eklipse, and Jai. All spot on. Trump is not my candidate, but trying to ban him for 'inciting hatred' by saying SOME Moslems are radical Jihadist terrorists and until we get it figured out we shouldn't let in POTENTIAL terrorists is crazy. Would you ever consider banning leftists for saying we should be worried about white men with guns? That is 'inciting hatred'. Or feminists who complain about 'rape culture' and how men are all evil and misogynist and call men insensitve. I just saw on Twitter (@Nero) that some Newsweek reporter posted this picture: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CYC4tWfWsAAE0Bt.png:large
THAT'S inciting hatred more than Trump. But if it comes form the left, it's fine.

Britain will continue to be yellow bellied fools, unless Jeremy Corybn is in control with the Labour Party.

Not really related but
http://youtu.be/P979HaI5qlk

America had very 'European' ideals and it still does have 'European' ideals. It's just it has different 'European' ideals then most European countries.

Darth Darth Binks,

Yeah, but he doesn't think this...

How do you know he does not think this way, explain me. Are you in his mind? You are impressing me Darth Darth, your telepathic skills are fabulous.

Illegal immigrants. He was talking about illegal immigrants. Half our gang members are Hispanic, and the majority of them are illegal.

So generalizing that every immigrants are robbers and rapists, this is right? I think you do not get the stupidity of his statements here.

Don't questions our ethics when the UK government is doing exactly what Trump is saying he'll do.

Explain me again wtf the British petition is giving credit to Trump at anything? Your logic is weird really.

Make sure you don't take things out of context...

Same thing goes for you Darth Darth.

UK citizens should be ashamed, because they are trying to accomplish what Trump wants to do, as their nation has previously done with many others before this time, simply because they have an unpopular opinion.

Do not even try to reverse what I just stated, how the UK citizens should be ashamed of this, aren't they free to be against Trump's ideas, how dare you criticize their actions, you know what, Great Britain is a democracy, so you are free to make petitions there about anything you want, so if they want to make a petition against Trump, just let them do this, Darth this is a totally arbitrary and peremptory statement.
Also please explain me what do you mean about “their nation has previously done with many others before this time”?


Pulsey,

It has got a lot to do with a country and people spoilt by political correctness. The phenomenon these days is the overwhelming grip of PC stopping people from making reasonable views and sensible arguments. Many are coerced into taking the moral high ground so that they can feel good about themselves, failing to appreciate decision making when they have no burden of responsibility on its outcome. Discussions are avoided on the basis of labels like 'bigotry', 'racism', 'fascism' etc.

So PC has something with making reasonable arguments? Again you present a further argument which is totally invalid. You call someone like a nazi of political correctness every time this person disagrees with you, ahah how strange. You are saying that we are avoiding discussions, but guess what this is here the contrary, I am totally open for discussions, I want to discuss, but every-time we are denouncing Trump's actions or statements, you are advancing the PC poor argument as a beacon against everyone having diverging opinions, this is totally lamentable. I want to discuss however you are the one stopping the debate here.

When Donald Trump makes policies on the grounds of, in my opinion, security, it is immediately nitpicked and labelled as 'racist', with the actual aim of the policy (stopping illegal immigration and mass influx of potential terrorists) being ignored.

This is a quite paranoid view I would say, I never say everything Trump did was racist, what I highlighted here is the fact that he often makes utterly stupid comments, without really thinking about it, he does not really realize the seriousness and importance of his own words, he is a man listened by millions of people, the least he can do is to be more balanced in his speeches.

Eklipse,

The wars in Iraq/Afgahnistan did damage U.S reputation signficantly, however it should be noted that those events were neither the first nor the last time the U.S has gotten involved in foreign affairs. It happened prior to Bush, and a similar policy was continued with Obama (Let's be realistic, Obama's foreign policy is pretty much "Diet Bush").

Neither the first nor the last, but anyway one of the worst events ever.

Let's also take note that under Bush the U.S actually had decent relations with Russia, thanks to Putin and Bush getting along fairly well for whatever reasons. Said U.S-Russian relations have fallen apart severely under the new administration.

Decent relations? Russia, alongside Germany, France and China were all against Bush decision to start a war against Iraq, did you forget it or did you ever know this? Tell me how the Russian-US relationship was better under Bush?

We only talk about PC when people do the outrageous things like try to ban people just for having different political views. You always act as if political correctness isn't a problem because at the current time it benefits your point of view.

Ban people ahah, this is actually quite ironic, since the party concerned tried to ban muslim people just because they are muslims, tell me who is the most demagogic here? 'PC' is the argumentation of people that knows nothing about how to correctly use rhetorics, so they advance the PC argument just because once they find someone with a disagreeing view they cannot say anything else. Lamentable and deplorable tbh.

The media always takes words out of context, and it seems you've bought into that. What Trump proposed was a temporary ban, and never once did he say that all Muslims are terrorists. What he essentially said was "I don't know which Muslims are terrorists and which ones aren't".

Oh yeah, well he just said he would forbid the entrance of any Muslims to the American soil, dont you consider this as totally xenophobic. Out of context, yeah, blame the media.

The comparison of Bush to Trump isn't really valid. Bush would of never supported things like Trump's proposed Muslim ban, in fact Bush went out of his way prior to the Iraq war to state "Muslims are not our enemies" (Whether his policies actually reflected that or not is debatable but still).

I, for once agree with you, the comparison of Bush to Trump is not valid, Trump is as I said earlier 10 times worse compared to Bush, so yeah the comparison is really not appropriate.

The U.S is not Europe, it will never be Europe, many people here have no desire to become like Europe. Nearly in every topic you try to compare the U.S to Europe for some reason, and it usually comes around to you implying or outright stating that the European way of thinking is superior somehow.

Guess what, many people in Europe analogously have no desire to become Americans. Again Eklipse, this statement is not surprising from you. Your own comments are arrogant, with hints of nationalism, do you really think the US is still an example for the world?
Gosh, I did not compare the US and Europe in every topic again stop your paranoia, here I was talking about European far right parties, that's just showing you how much Jingoist you are, do you really believe everything is centered to the US? Every time someone disagrees with you and dare denounce the US in some way, you come here blaming it because you cannot accept anything against your nation, I never saw anyone more nationalist here in these forums such as to you.

Stop trying to silence people you disagree with using petty petitions and bans, and actually argue against them instead.

It is what I am currently doing, I guess you still did not get the purpose of this petition.

Also, you've already taken the assumption that everyone here agrees with Trump, which is a false assumption. Few if even any of us actually agree with Trump on this issue, but this is a matter of principle. It's about standing up for free speech and putting a stop to political correctness before it becomes too ingrained.

I never said this, I know fortunately some Americans that are against Trump, do you think I am that dumb? And again you are advancing the PC argument, this is getting really boring, do you only have this as argument? This is pathetic really, cant you have a decent dialogue and debate with some more intelligent arguments in it? Please do better.

At the most basic level free speech is made to protect UNPOPULAR opinions, because nobody would ever try to censor what is "acceptable". Trump's words are indeed very offensive to many of us, but he was the right to say them because part of free speech is being able to say offensive things without getting banned or otherwise punished.

Part of the free speech is also to allow people to show their discontent about Trump and his ideology, like what the British did, again I dont get why so many Americans in here are that much outraged about this petition, calm down guys, you are just being against the very principles of free speech, and you dare advance the argument of PC, whereas you cannot even respect their opinion. Do you even get how much contradicted your answers are?

I really hope that the U.K parliament treats this so-called petition like the piece of trash that it is. Hopefully there's some sensible people in the U.K government who actually have a basic level of respect for freedom of speech. I'd probably lose all respect for Britain if this passed, which would be a shame because I really like the U.K and it sucks to see them become infested with political correctness.

Piece of trash? You are getting worse here, so everytime a petition is against your own opinion or point of view, you call it a 'piece of trash', Eklipse I thought you were better than that, just because they started a petition against Trump, you find it right to say it is a piece of trash? People are free to be against Trump words, as they can be against any other politicians words, tell me again who is the PC nazi here avoiding a true debate?

Now, dear Pulsey, Darth, Eklipse, Jai, let's discuss seriously, and please just stop with your pathetic PC arguments all the time. I want a serious dialogue, so tell me then:

About why Donald Trump's ideology is defensible or not?
Why are you guys that much offended about a simple British petition of people that freely decided to denounce a political orientation?
Tell me the true reason of this torrent of aggressive or outraged people comments against these actions made by a group of British people?
Don't you think you are here overreacting too much here?

Edited 1/7/2016 03:21:25

Wow. I'm gonna have to walk away from this for bit. I'll be back a little later to continue the serious discussion I've been having the whole time.

LOL Angry Koala just displayed the most pitiful attempt to haggard an argument and rebuttal together. All the classic signs of a poor debate - hypocrisy, straw-men, out of context sentences, etc.

I'll just touch on a few points if you'll humor me:

1)

Eclipse: I really hope that the U.K parliament treats this so-called petition like the piece of trash that it is.

Koala: Piece of trash? You are getting worse here, so everytime a petition is against your own opinion or point of view, you call it a 'piece of trash',

Do you not understand the hypocrisy of your own statements. Let's go through the logic: 1) Donald Trump shares his policy views on immigration and Muslim extremism 2) Mass Media creates a false narrative that Trump is xenophobic and a racist 3) British people listening to US mass media decide to start petition to ban someone for sharing their opinions (a right protected under the 1st Amendment) 4) Eclipse calls the petition a piece of trash because it attacks Trump's inherent right to free speech 5) Koala attacks Eclipse for calling the petition a piece of trash, arguing that Eclipse is applying a double standard

HELLO is anyone there in Koala's head?? The petition is not a piece of trash because its against Eclipse's point of view. He's calling it trash because it attacks Trump's free-speech rights.

2) Tell me the true reason of this torrent of aggressive or outraged people comments against these actions made by a group of British people?

Because its idiotic, childish, and totally pointless!! You can't ban someone for their opinion if they caused no physical harm to someone. Period. End of story. Do you realize the hypocrisy of this action? Britain hasn't even banned the Premier of the Chinese Government...and he's the leader of a country that daily commits human rights abuses and violate international law!!

I have little time at the moment, I will only answer what is directed at me...

So PC has something with making reasonable arguments? Again you present a further argument which is totally invalid. You call someone like a nazi of political correctness every time this person disagrees with you...

This petition from the UK, which is the subject of the thread here, is political correctness gone wrong. A man exercising his right to express his opinion, a policy to protect Americans from potential terrorists, and yet the aim of the policy itself is being shadowed by the label 'hate speech.' The petition, or you, offers no refutation as to why Trump's policy's aim will be unsuccessful in its goal, (protecting American citizens), all that matters to you is that by your unfounded interpretation, the policy is 'hate speech' and thus him expressing his peaceful opinion is 'unacceptable behaviour'. You don't like people disagreeing wit your opinion so much, that you even make a petition to ban Trump from the UK, to prevent him him from further spreading his opinion on border security. That is my point.

This is a quite paranoid view I would say, I never say everything Trump did was racist, what I highlighted here is the fact that he often makes utterly stupid comments, without really thinking about it,

You are accusing me of attacking straw-man arguments and yet you have little to support your own claims. Perhaps if you would actually provide your own analysis for discussion...

Edited 1/7/2016 03:01:43

^ Jai,

First of all, no need to be that rude, as I said I am ok to debate and dialogue with all of you, as long as it is with respect in both sides.

HELLO is anyone there in Koala's head?? The petition is not a piece of trash because its against Eclipse's point of view. He's calling it trash because it attacks Trump's free-speech rights.

And Hello Jai? Wake up, could you have the decency at least to read the entire extract of what I wrote? is that too difficult for you?
Notice that I was pointing out the fact that Eklipse had no right to qualify this petition a piece of trash, which is rather seen as insulting, this was my main message here, but you, of course, neglected and omitted it, and you talk about hypocrisy? you choose your own extracts, and you are not even able to answer every comments I posted here, while I myself took the time to answer every coments and extracts from Pulsey, Darth and Eklipse, you are the least here to give me any lessons about rhetorics, this is greatly deplorable.
And again you talk about freedom of speech, you should be happy that this petition exists, that indeed shows freedom of speech exist.
In some coutnry people can have diverging opinions and express it like they want, and so what? Stop feeling that outraged, come on, it's not like the Uk declared war on the US, tssshh.
I cannot understand people like you criticizing all the time and insulting actions, like this British petition, seriously cant you just focus on your own affairs?

And Jai, did Britain ban Donald Trump for now? tell me, answer this simple question by a yes or a no?

Stop being stupid, it is not like Trump would be banned from the UK. Again you take it too seriously, but this is not the first time I see you taking things at face value, particularly when it deals with America, calm down dude and try to be more ponderated in your own comments, because right now you are taking it too seriously.


Last but not least, you call me a poor debater, you are not even able to reply about 90% of what I said, try better next time.

(quite late now I will keep posting tomorrow or the day after, keep on debating guys!)

Stop being stupid, it is not like Trump would be banned from the UK. Again you take it too seriously, but this is not the first time I see you taking things at face value, particularly when it deals with America, calm down dude and try to be more ponderated in your own comments, because right now you are taking it too seriously.

Ah, so you are saying the petition was made as a joke then, is it? Funny how you keep backtracking like that.

Edited 1/7/2016 06:10:02

I have no problem with creating this petition (although I think it is extremely misguided). However, if the government were to listen, they would be the epitome of hypocrisy. What scares me is that it could very well happen.

EDIT: Michael Savage was banned for things he said that supposedly were inciting hatred. Do you agree with this? I don't mind petition, but I don't understand how signees can invoke their free speech while trashing Trump's rights. In fact, liberals incite more hatred towards Trump than Trump incites against anyone.

EDIT 2: How can people (not necessarily you Koala) think it is okay to ban Trump while allowing Muslims (20% of whom agree with the 7/7 bombings) to enter. They incite far more hatred against the West than Trump does against Muslims. He says that shouldn't enter for a while. They say we should die. WTF is wrong with this scenario!!

Edited 1/7/2016 17:32:55

go Trump :D

Trump has my heart. He bought it.