^ Cata stop alting and get a life .o

^
What alt are you talking about?

The Basques taught the Spaniards how to play football (this is actually the truth since the first Spanish team was composed only by Basque players).

Oh shut the * up! Spain isn't going away. They're really poor, and they make SEAT and GTA cars. Not like most of Africa poor tho. They have a reasonable large GDP feeding a reasonably large amount of people recieving an unreasonable amount of money.

poor... *facepalm*

Depends actually where you are in Spain, North Spain is pretty rich, actually richer than most of the rest of Europe. Ironically the wealthiest regions in Spain are from first to third: Euskadi, Navarre and Catalonia, 3 regions that will secede from poor Spain pretty soon.

My family is European, and I play soccer. I follow most of the leagues.

Oh, seriously? Is that Angry man spreading his propaganda again? Deal with it, even non Spaniards can tell you how we are fine.

We invented helicopters and submarines also, apart from the previously said ones.

And another thing: Koala, I know you are a proud leftist. So, why are you that racist against us? Admit it. You are a closed mind Basque nationalist, whose arguments are hate against a "common enemy" who is also worse than your "nation". I have heard that ideology many times before, in Nazi Germany, or Francoist Spain. You use far-right arguments, yet you either don't realise, or don't even care.

Independentism in BOTH CATALONIA and EUSKADI is not as big as you think. Brainwashing regional governments have made a huge damage, but still, pro-Spain are a majority in BOTH of them. Ha, ha, ha. You think everyone thinks like you, everyone wants to secede from the old, poor, oppressive Spain. One day you might open your eyes, and see how different is the world.

And meanwhile, I am going to say some facts: PNV, main Basque party, is not separatist. Navarre, even though governed by a nationalist coalition, is not even Basque. They don't want to be Basque. They have an older, own history, than the other Basque provinces. And the last one: DURING THE CENTRALIST, OPPRESIVE, FRANCOIST RÉGIME, CATALAN KIDS HAD FIVE WEEKLY HOURS OF EDUCATION IN CATALAN LANGUAGE. NOWADAYS, CATALAN KIDS HAVE JUST TWO WEEKLY HOURS OF EDUCATION IN CASTILIAN LANGUAGE. In other words, Catalan speaking families had more rights during the dictatorship than Spanish speaking families nowadays. Just another proof of how totalitarian are Catalan Nationalist parties. They send propaganda by their regional (supposedly neutral) TV, they brainwash the kids since they are really young, they manipulate their history so they make their people believe they are oppressed, etc. Nationalism is what it is. And, luckily, most people in the EU already know.

Union makes strength. Down with borders. Down with hate.

And, by the way, FC Barcelona is one of our better products ;) Visca Barça!

(I needed to relax myself after that walltext, lol)

Untruths:

*Olives (obviously, only God invented Olives, but they were first cultivated in Iran)
*Second biggest empire ever (no, the 1922 British Empire was 1st, followed closely by 1279 Mongol empire in 2nd (some say Mongol Empire was the biggest, it's disputed), followed by 1866 Russian Empire in 3rd, and then 1801 Spanish Empire in 4th)
*Spain is important than France (France has about 33% more population, a bigger country, a nuclear country, and still has loads of (mostly small) overseas settlements. In my opinion, France is 10th most powerful country (3rd in EU)
*Spain invented the Molotov. While Molotov can mean many different things, the thing that most comes to mind (besides Vyacheslav Molotov, a person), is the Molotov cluster bomb, which is undeniably Russian.
*Spain taught the world how to remove kebab (Turkey was never in Spain).
*Spain invented the helicopter (helicopters that could not carry folk were first made in China; helicopters that carried folk were first made in France)
*Spain invented the submarine (British)

And comments:
*"Mongols weren't really an empire, just organised pirates taking whatever they could." Almost all empires are built this way, certainly the British empire.
*"Union makes strength". Strength makes oppression.

Hurray! My favorite Spaniard debater is here :D

Pablo :) so where shall I begin?

Oh, seriously? Is that Angry man spreading his propaganda again? Deal with it, even non Spaniards can tell you how we are fine.

Yes it's me the Angry Basque! Lucho por la libertad de mi pueblo!

And another thing: Koala, I know you are a proud leftist. So, why are you that racist against us?

I'm not racist, my best friend as I already told you is Spanish... he is a proud Spaniard (the weird thing is that he is also part French, and neglects in some extent his Basque origins, that perhaps because he hated the Basque class we had together x) anyway long story).
I am not racist against Spaniards but I hate their government and rulers as long as they keep interfering with the Basques. You have no right to command the will of a whole people. I am leftist yes and Abertzale (meaning adhering to the Basque cause), and what about you Pablo? sure I heard you were also leftist but it seems you are also a plain blind Spanish nationalist, shall i remind you continuously neglect Franco's wrongdoing, I already told you that people in Euskadi were shot just because they spoke Basque, do you think that separatism came from nothing?

No, Spain deserved it in some ways. The 40 years of dictatorship has awaken the spirits of the Basques or the Catalans because they were barely considered as second class citizens, this was a kind of apartheid you know, this went too far.
This is why now Spain is "paying" these 40 years of torture, humiliation, destruction. I told you also that my father almost died in the 80s because of the GAL shooting randomly people in a Abertzale bar not even supporting ETA and this was not in Spain but in France! How would you react if France did the same thing? My father also lost a good friend of him playing football (for people that do not know it yet, GAL is a terrorist group against ETA created by the Spanish state, illegally murdering people in the French controlled part of the Basque Country this defies International Law and Spain has yet not paid for this crime, you have a very good French movie named "GAL" released recently that I advise you to watch)

Tl;DR: Just explaining to Pablito where the separatist movements come from (Franquism) and why Spain deserved it finally after 40 years of dictatorship and terror where the Basques or Catalans were second class citizens.

Edited 2/12/2016 13:26:15

Admit it. You are a closed mind Basque nationalist, whose arguments are hate against a "common enemy" who is also worse than your "nation". I have heard that ideology many times before, in Nazi Germany, or Francoist Spain. You use far-right arguments, yet you either don't realise, or don't even care.

The close minded nationalist is you Pablo, refusing to listen to others, if the Catalans or the Basques want a referendum about self-determination, this is perfectly justified, and defended by the United Nations. So one day Spain will have to let them decide whether or not the Catalans or the Basques want to stay or leave Spain.

The close minded ones, refusing peace are the Spaniards, not the Basques, refusing to be part of the International Peace Conference Summit held in San Sebastian organized by the Basque citizens' group Lokarri, yes you heard it well: a group of citizens launched it not Spain, because the Spanish government truly does not give a fuck about peace, they just want to keep conveying an image of evilness from the Basques and misinforming the Spaniards about the Basques real intentions, this is why there is so much hatred toward us.
This conference under Kofi Annan, former secretary of the UN, with many delegations and famous personalities such as Jimmy Carter (former US president) or Bertie Ahern (former PM of Ireland) were also part of this summit, and Spain (how surprising) refused to be part of it, because they want to ruin everything, and by dangerously considering any Basque wanting freedom as a terrorist, this will just alienate even more the Basques from Spain you know.
Remember the terrorist attack in 2004 in Atocha? The former PM of Spain Aznar without even having any proof of what he was saying stated that it was led by ETA, guess what it was Al Qaeda... Keep making stupid confusions.
It's been 5 years that ETA officially renounced and announced its ceasefire, and this was mainly thanks to the achievements made during this summit, Spain has nothing to do with this, they never helped to fight terrorism, they just worsened the situation even more (see GAL). And furthermore instead of blaming the Basques about ETA, you know that ETA is a monster which traces its roots from Franquism, and the Spanish Government continuously fed that monster with stupid and dangerous decisions even after Spain became a "democracy".

And breaking the Myth (certainly conveyed by some Spanish newspapers bashing continuously the Basques such as ABC or El Mundo), the separatists do not want a secluded nation, they want to be a full member of the European Union, movements for independence does have future, what has no future is supremacist nationalism (the very Spanish nationalism you are defending), the Basques actually once achieving independence do not want to stay alone in a closed world, you would have known it if you knew a little bit of Basque culture: the Basques are great explorers and shipbuilders and were always open to foreign cultures, the first written poem in Basque was about the Basque language which was to be revealed and spread to the world: ”Euskara jalgi hadi plazara, Euskara jalgi hadi mundura!” (Bernard Detchepare, Lingua Vasconum Primitiae, 1545).

The people for independence want a Basque nation part of the European Union, this is actually the future of Europe like it or not: the oldish big nations as we know will disappear and let the smaller people to have their own nation inside a Federal Europe, respecting all ethnicities, cultures and languages. Scotland, Flanders, Catalonia, Wales or Euskadi will be full members of it one day, as I told you a long time ago, we are already achieving a partnership between north and south Basque lands getting beyond the formal borders of Spain and France: an European city is currently created between Bayonne and San Sebastian. The symbolic signs across the Franco-Spanish borders with "France" or "Spain" have been suppressed last year and replaced by the traditional names of the Basques provinces such as Lapurdi/Labourd (in the French side around Bayonne) and Gipuzkoa (Spanish side around San sebastian).


TL;DR? Here I explain to Pablito that the Spanish government never wanted peace at all, they never planned to be part of the recent Peace talks led by personalities such as Kofi Annan, I am here also proving that the Basques are not a secluded people at all, they throughout history proved to be very open, great seafarers and explorers that the Spanish Kingdom exploited to establish their gigantic empire, but what the Basques can't admit is not being free and ruled by a foreign power such as Spain or France acting like Colonial Powers.

Edited 2/12/2016 13:45:31

And meanwhile, I am going to say some facts: PNV, main Basque party, is not separatist.

Did you read me? I clearly said they weren't (openly) separatist earlier, if you would bother read me.

Navarre, even though governed by a nationalist coalition, is not even Basque. They don't want to be Basque. They have an older, own history, than the other Basque provinces.

That just proves you know nothing about our history. Navarre is Basque, its origins and roots are Basque: Navarre was built by the Vascones (or Vascons) a tribe who once inhabited what is roughly nowadays Navarre + North Aragon + La Rioja, and guess what the name itself "Basque" came from the Vascons (Navarre also is a Basque term from “Naba” meaning: flat land surrounded by mountains).

The Vascons also gave their name to Gascony (once known as Vasconia, the province in France roughly between Bordeaux and Toulouse) because during the Dark Ages when the Germanic invasions occured, the Vascons who were barely romanized (hence the survival of Basque) invaded the old Roman province of Aquitania, and rebasquified it (this is the theory of "Late Vasconisation") since before the Roman rule, Aquitania or Novempopulania was also inhabited by proto-basque tribes. The Vascons spoke an old form of Basque (archeological discoveries of the Roman period or earlier artifacts with written extract of protobasque proved that Basque changed surprisingly little).

The first kings of Navarre (or during that period the Kingdom of Pamplona) had a Basque name : Eneko Arista (Eneko means in Basque "son of" or "my child/my little one" the spanish name Inigo derives from it, Arista (nowadays spelled Haritza) means Oak or "to be resilient" and is a symbol of resistance strong leadership).

And believe me or not the Kings of Navarre actually spoke the "Linguae Navarrorum" (=Basque) until the 12th century when the old dynasties of the true Navarrese was replaced by a Frankish/French one because Sancho VII the Strong (or Antso in Basque) was childless, so Navarre after this was ruled by the Dynasty of Champagne, and the Kings alonside Latin either spoke old French or Occitan, but never Spanish nor Navarrese romance anyway. Even the Navarrese nobility spoke basque between them: Buruzagi is an old term for “leader” for someone ruling an area for the King in old Navarre, and Maizter (from Master) is something like Mayor.

Navarre is the Heartland of the Basques, the true independent state the Basques ever achieved to have, the Spanish and the French/Frankish during centuries tried to denature it and make it a “Spanish realm” or a French one (the French Kings were traditionally said to be "King of France and Navarre" since Henry IV) whereas it truly isnt.

So why are many Navarrese against the Basques? Difficult story, but if you look at a map of Navarre, some parts of it are Romance speaking since old times (example: Tudela), and never considered themselves as Basques, however 3/4 of Navarre at least until the 19th century was Basque Speaking, but was heavily Romancized after this, there was a great work of shame led by the Spanish state towards Basque speakers, since not so long ago you could hear old Spaniards saying to Basque speakers "Hablame en Cristiano" ("Speak in a Christian Language) because they truly believed we were still barbarian pagans and heretics...

Nowadays only 10% of the Navarrese speak Basque, a very ancient dialect is now extinct (Roncalese) since the 90s, congratulations! You almost successfully denatured Navarre entirely, sadly for you the last elections in 2015 proved that the Navarrese were finally recovering their old and true identity. The Basque country is nothing without Navarre.

And the last one: DURING THE CENTRALIST, OPPRESIVE, FRANCOIST RÉGIME, CATALAN KIDS HAD FIVE WEEKLY HOURS OF EDUCATION IN CATALAN LANGUAGE. NOWADAYS, CATALAN KIDS HAVE JUST TWO WEEKLY HOURS OF EDUCATION IN CASTILIAN LANGUAGE.

well congrats, you are more brainwashed than I thought, the Catalan culture and language suffered greatly during the Franquist regime, and you dare defend a dictatorial regime in your post? who is the pro Franquist one here? Que vergüenza!

In other words, Catalan speaking families had more rights during the dictatorship than Spanish speaking families nowadays. Just another proof of how totalitarian are Catalan Nationalist parties. They send propaganda by their regional (supposedly neutral) TV, they brainwash the kids since they are really young, they manipulate their history so they make their people believe they are oppressed, etc. Nationalism is what it is. And, luckily, most people in the EU already know.

Anything which is deconstructing the Spanish myth is brainwashing the people? Stop being stubborn, and let the Catalans choose their destiny, like the UK allowed the Scots to vote, what's wrong with Spain? If the Catalans vote no then the problem would be solved. And if the Catalans leave, well life is not over, you would lost the richest region but that way, take it as a chance, it may finally help the Spaniards to pull your finger out! And they would finally survive on their own as they are currently not able to help by themselves...
Nevertheless if Spain keeps being stubborn, remember what happened in Ireland during the Irish War of Independence? I guess you do not want a civil war like what happened there, so the Spanish government should stop encouraging these violence sentiments and encourage democracy and hence self-determination.


Tl;DR? As Pablito does not know anything apparently about the Basque history, I was just explaining (succinctly) our history, and why Spain should allow these people to have a self determination referendum.

Edited 2/12/2016 14:13:47

So much drama

And if the Catalans leave, well life is not over

Spain would be.

Are History and discussions about culture "drama" now? Find a better definition of Drama. And stop trolling randomly threads that you are not interested in.

Oh god, walls of text again... Spain and France are both relevant, deal with it.

^ too illiterate to even read my TL;DR points? x)

Koala, two fast things, before I start answering everything:

1) You are assuming I don't want them to vote. What I don't want is an illegal referendum, because I will never allow anyone break the rules. If it is made with the approval from Spaniards, I wouldn't even care. They are in no way better than us to decide which laws they can break.

2) Hypocrite. Do you seriously think I have never criticized Francoist Regime? I did even in my previous walltext. I have said several times to you, in other times "Fuck Franco, I don't care about him". You should actually remember it. And, to clarify: I am not a leftist, I don't know who told you that. I am a progressive liberal. Again, tell me how is that compatible with a conservative dictatorship, like Francoist one.

Now, ETA. Your only argument is "Oh ETA might not be that good but Spanish oppressors had a counterterrorist group for 5 years".

The GAL, were a secret group that, when it was discovered, it made its leaders GO TO PRISON. By the Spanish Justice. I doubt you would put your "beloved" ETA leaders in prison.

The GAL was horrible, true. They killed 26 people for 5 years. But does it make ETA good? Tell me how! ETA killed 829 (official) to 858 (claimed) people, for more than 50 years. I don't mind whether they kill 26 or 858, but if they are ready to kill, they must be rejectable. Why should we have negociated with terrorists? Would you see USA, Russia or the EU negotiating with Daesh? Daesh and Eta and Gal are equally bad. From the single moment they are willing to murder a single person, they should be excluded from any democratic system, and punished for their acts.