I think it should be the woman's choice, and that babies and fetuses can't really be considered "people".

I think it should be pretty damn obvious, IMO.

Eh its not obvious because I would reason its not true.

At the most they're equally traumatic. I know for a fact women have higher rates of depression and suicide after abortion.

Citation needed!!! You know this for a fact? I am extremely skeptical.

You may want to look up post partum depression, as well as do a bit of reading on the *hormonal* changes women experience during and after birth, which lead to *maternal bonding* with her child. These *hormonal* changes *do not* occur after an abortion. On the face of it, your claims are highly likely to be anti-abortion propaganda.

@Jai
Doesn't matter if it is legal or not. 31% is still a huge number, and most importantly, they are quite vocal (especially when they are represented by an entire party)

And have whole television networks (Fox News) dedicated to spreading the hatred.

In anchient Greece they used the argument that the human body doesn't recieve a soul until the age of 2. Hence postnatal abortion. Personally I agree with this philosophy too, although in practise it's not that simple in modern times, especially as even severely premature babies can be kept alive quite successfully now.

If we're going to go down the "when does life begin" route then you will always lose, because life began from Abiogenesis. After that it's just been a case of simple reproduction of cells and the passing of genetic material from one cell to another.

In that sense though you could argue that a "new" human is formed once an egg takes genetic material from a sperm cell and combines it to a new piece of DNA.

But given that view, during the process of IVF, hundreds of humans are killed for just one successful birth, which makes the whole process rather sickening.

In the end the decision is pretty arbitary, just like anything else. We just have to make the laws based on best intensions to protect the most people overall and best suit the needs of the species. We can't have a perfect solution because nature has not provided us one, nor does it intend to.

In my view, even just thinking about having sex and then not going through with it prevents the potential human that could have been made from being created at all, which is basically the same as murder.

In my view, even just thinking about having sex and then not going through with it prevents the potential human that could have been made from being created at all, which is basically the same as murder

No......

That would mean that giving a blowjob is the same as committing murder.

Your taking an insane view their.

Why to people feel the need to throw text walls at each other?

Abortion is moral.

Just accept it you redneck bible-bashers.

In anchient Greece they used the argument that the human body doesn't recieve a soul until the age of 2

Maybe just this time we can leave the ancient superstitions out of this :)

In my mind, and the most common sense and rational way to approach the question is to determine when the fetus becomes sentient. If the fetus has the ability to feel, and therefore to suffer, then yes i think it is fair to give him some basic rights. Before that...no

Edited 2/13/2016 01:29:21

Feline, the only argument against abortion is religion.

Citation needed!!! You know this for a fact? I am extremely skeptical.

http://afterabortion.org/2001/suicide-rate-higher-after-abortion-study-shows/

http://www.lifenews.com/2014/12/19/suicide-rate-for-women-having-abortions-is-six-times-higher-than-women-giving-birth/

http://www.lifenews.com/2013/07/31/studies-show-higher-risk-of-suicide-for-women-following-an-abortion/

http://www.abortionfacts.com/reardon/abortion-and-suicide

http://www.life.org.nz/suicide/suicidekeyissues/abortion-and-suicide/

http://www.nationalrighttolifenews.org/news/2013/10/abortion-and-suicide-the-grim-statistics/#.Vr6Ni_IrLIU

http://www.aaplog.org/complications-of-induced-abortion/induced-abortion-and-maternal-mortality/induced-abortion-and-maternal-suicide/

http://afterabortion.org/2001/suicide-rate-higher-after-abortion-study-shows/

Does not show what you claimed. We're talking about the difference between women who have abortions vs. women who did not have an abortion but instead gave their child away to adoption. The article you linked to only says, "A new Elliot Institute study has found that women who have had abortions are more likely to commit suicide than those who have given birth," which is not at all surprising.

The other links all appear to claim the same thing. None of them say anything about adoption, AFAICT, after a quick skim.

In short, anti-abortion propaganda.

Edited 2/13/2016 02:07:23

Don't misquote me dude. Read what I said:

I know for a fact women have higher rates of depression and suicide after abortion. I don't know if there are any studies on neural effects of giving up a child for adoption.

I only claimed to know the research that women have higher rates of depression and suicide after abortion. I told you I didn't know of the research studies linking adoption and mental health. You were very quick to declare "anti-abortion propaganda". I never claimed to know via evidence that adoption causes less mental health effects for women. I didn't lie or misrepresent. I only told you what I know and I provided the evidence for that.

Edited 2/13/2016 02:11:38

WCT Quote from Off-Topic Thread: https://www.warlight.net/Forum/134083-christians-support-gay-marriage?Offset=180

"It's the argument that matters, not the source of the argument."

The research statistics are not debatable. You could argue against the methodology of the research papers, but you cannot dismiss the argument presented simply due to the nature of the publisher of the article.


Logical Argument Provided By - WCT

Don't misquote me dude. Read what I said:

I know for a fact women have higher rates of depression and suicide after abortion. I don't know if there are any studies on neural effects of giving up a child for adoption.

I only claimed to know the research that women have higher rates of depression and suicide after abortion.

Okay, I agree I did not read your post correctly, and left out an important part of the initial quote. However, I was referring to this, with my earlier comment included for full context:

If you were to compare the two, I guarantee you'd find that giving up a fully developed child is more traumatic than having an abortion. Unfortunately, I don't have anything to back that up other than common sense, and I'm not interested enough in the point to try to google it. I think it should be pretty damn obvious, IMO.

Eh its not obvious because I would reason its not true.

At the most they're equally traumatic.

There you claimed abortion and adoption are equally traumatic. That's the point I'm skeptical about, not whether having an abortion is associated with increased rate of suicide compared to *any* woman giving birth. Your links do not support the 'equally traumatic' claim.

The research statistics are not debatable. You could argue against the methodology of the research papers, but you cannot dismiss the argument presented simply due to the nature of the publisher of the article.

Red herring provided by Jai. That's not the point I'm skeptical of.

exept he didn't ask you for "an argument", he asked for reliable source to support your initial argument.

Anyway, this isn't even relevent Jai. Abortions are not the cause for suicide. Mental health is the cause for suicide. Getting an abortion is extremely hard on the psyche, and society should be supportive rather than put shame on these women, wich only make it harder for them and probably is one of the cause that leads to suicides.

There you claimed abortion and adoption are equally traumatic. That's the point I'm skeptical about

Ah okay so you referenced the wrong quote.

Note that I said "I would reason its not true". I don't have any evidence of equally traumatic...but at the same time note that I don't know of any evidence suggesting that giving a child up for adoption results in quantifiable increases in depression and suicide (maybe you know of a source to point me too).

The research statistics are not debatable. You could argue against the methodology of the research papers, but you cannot dismiss the argument presented simply due to the nature of the publisher of the article.

This wasn't for you. This was for Feline Juggernaut.

he asked for reliable source to support your initial argument

To be fair I provided a list of links for the point I thought he was referring to, which was abortions cause increases in suicide and depression in mothers. Also "reliability" is relativistic and subjective, especially when the actual article themselves reference 3rd party research.

Edited 2/13/2016 02:34:51

suicide is also pretty high among gays, does it mean that homosexuality leads to suicide? Or maybe (wild guess) could it be the case that society forcing them to be locked in a closet has something to do with it?

Ah okay so you referenced the wrong quote.

To be more precise, I misunderstood "I know for a fact women have higher rates of depression and suicide after abortion" to be saying "I know for a fact women have higher rates of depression and suicide after abortion, compared to after adoption," which is not what you meant. I stopped there and didn't read the next sentence, which I should have.

Note that I said "I would reason its not true".

And then you *claimed* that they are equivalent. That's what I am skeptical of.

I don't have any evidence of equally traumatic...but at the same time note that I don't know of any evidence suggesting that giving a child up for adoption results in quantifiable increases in depression and suicide (maybe you know of a source to point me too).

Then I consider the matter closed for the time being, since I don't have a source handy, and don't really care enough about *my* opinion on it to to bother to look it up. It was only when you *appeared* to be claiming (which was my mistaken mis-reading) that you 'knew for a fact' that 'they are equally traumatic' that my BS detector went berserk. Now that I realize you weren't really claiming that (or at least not 'for a fact'), I don't care anymore. :-)

suicide is also pretty high among gays

I think that's a false comparison. Gays have only recently gotten legal protection for their actions (see obergefell v. hodges), however Roe v. Wade was in 1973 (more than 40 years ago). Gays are a newly protected minority class and therefore are still reeling from social anxiety/criticism of their lifestyle choices. The same can't be said of those who choose to commit abortions.


I don't care anymore. :-)

Hahaha fair enough. I'm good for today too. Same time tomorrow then? I wonder what topic the Conservative will choose for us?

Edited 2/13/2016 02:51:02

This wasn't for you. This was for Feline Juggernaut.

Again, I misinterpreted you. Apologies.