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"Brexit": 2/22/2016 00:44:46


[AOE] JaiBharat909
Level 56
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Daily Mail has reportedly polled that 144 Conservative MPs and the Mayor of London will vote against David Cameron and his EU brokered arrangement!! (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3456924/At-144-Conservative-MPs-defy-Cameron-vote-leave-EU-including-candidate-London-mayor-Zac-Goldsmith.html)

Should Britain leave the EU? Why or why not? What will be the fate of the EU if "Brexit" turns into reality?

Vote - http://goo.gl/vJfuOS
Results - http://goo.gl/mbGeZ5
"Brexit": 2/22/2016 00:58:51


The Lord
Level 52
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Yes, Britain should leave the EU. That will trigger a domino effect and reduce the EU into a much smaller entity.

Make Britain Great Again!
"Brexit": 2/22/2016 01:11:17


TeamGuns 
Level 58
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Sure leave the EU!

Lose scotland all together, the economic advantages you have and start being discriminated by any european nation for the rest of the century.

Be our guest.


Sincerely, an eu citizen that doesn't give a damm about britain staying in the EU or not.
"Brexit": 2/22/2016 01:31:53


Darth Darth Binks
Level 56
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Why would the UK leave the EU? Is it able to sustain its own economic currency?
"Brexit": 2/22/2016 01:56:53


Жұқтыру
Level 55
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Britain should just join the EFTA or something like - the EU is a good concept, but implemented bad and clingy.

Edited 2/22/2016 02:02:22
"Brexit": 2/22/2016 02:02:58


GeneralPE
Level 56
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the Eu is a corrupt, self-serving, independence-stifling leviathan that destroys Europe through its immigration policies and economic dependence. Leave. Now.
"Brexit": 2/22/2016 14:57:42


Fleecemaster 
Level 59
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^

I think it's likely we will leave...
"Brexit": 2/22/2016 16:13:49

An abandoned account
Level 56
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First of all, David Cameron is a dick head. He sees most of the public the same way he sees a dead pig. He uses these negotiations to appease his back benches and to suck up to the city of London's tax dodging banks rather than fix any real problems in the EU. There was nothing in those negotiations about stopping throwing dead fish back into the sea because of quotas from the common fisheries policy, there was nothing about making the European commission accountable by making it directly elected and there was nothing about stopping large multi-national companies abusing the EU to dodge tax.

Anyway, onto the referendum itself. I'm voting to stay. Although, the isn't perfect, it's still better to be in than out. I personally intend to use the free movement of people as a back up for when the tories fuck everything up. Our economy is reliant n the free movement of goods, services and people that we get from EU membership.

Also, no one who want to leave can answer what will happens if we leave. Do we end up like Switzerland and Norway where everything remains the same, but we have to do everything the EU says without any say in the decision making process, r do we end up like Canada or South Korea, who spent 7 years negotiating a trade deal to have a small reduction in tariffs? Both of those options sound pretty shittiy.

Lose scotland all together


If Scotland leaves the UK as a result of this is largely irrelevant. If a majority of people in Scotland decide they want to leave, then that entirely up to them. However, I'm more concerned about the future of Gibraltar than Scotland. Spain could use it as an excuse not to negotiate a trade deal or EEA membership unless we let them steal it against the wishes of the people of Gibraltar. They've shown twice through referendums that they have no intention in joining Spain. Forcing Gibraltar to leave against their wishes is not something I would agree with.

Britain should just join the EFTA or something like - the EU is a good concept, but implemented bad and clingy.


No, that would be the worst of both worlds.
"Brexit": 2/22/2016 16:35:48


[AOE] JaiBharat909
Level 56
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f Scotland leaves the UK as a result of this is largely irrelevant.

Yes you only lose 16.9 billion in GDP, 5.295 million citizens, and a lot of international prestige. Leaving the EU gives Scotland an excuse to declare their independence. However, as it currently stands UK is giving up substantial policy making capabilities to Brussels. A vote to leave would be the ultimate sign of national sovereignty no?
"Brexit": 2/22/2016 16:47:55


Min34 
Level 58
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Do we end up like Switzerland and Norway where everything remains the same, but we have to do everything the EU says without any say in the decision making process


I fucking hope so
"Brexit": 2/22/2016 17:00:13


GeneralPE
Level 56
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Yeah, it seems to be working out pretty damn well for the Swiss
"Brexit": 2/22/2016 17:09:15


Angry Koala
Level 57
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Brexit... well I'm totally agreeing with what an Italian journalist said today: "if they want to leave, let them go, since the first day they entered the EC then the EU they just slowed down and blocked the process of integration in Europe", the real goal of the EU being to be something like Victor Hugo in the 19th century envisaged "A united states of Europe", not only economical but a political federation, with a strong voice intentionally. The British politicians (or at least the English ones, if we consider Scotland as mainly europhile) wanted only the economical benefits from the European common market that helped them to save their country from the dire situation they were in during the 70s (this was before the miraculous discovery of oil fields in the North Sea near Scotland).

But let me tell you something, as long as you join a community you have rights and also some duties.

Now Cameron had some guarantees from Europe last week, so Britain has special rights compared to other European nations, which is against all the very principles the founding fathers of Europe were fighting for. I would rather prefer England out instead of England having preferential treatments rather unfair since other European nations do not benefit from it.
"Brexit": 2/22/2016 17:13:47


SirSalty
Level 49
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The French can take their shit baguettes and fuck off.
"Brexit": 2/22/2016 17:22:31


GeneralPE
Level 56
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Europe has been greatest when nations have competed among themselves. Crushing national pride and attempting to force together literally dozens of ethnic groups into one nation is destined to fail. They have been separate for hundreds of years. How do you support the EU and Basques at the same time, Koala?
"Brexit": 2/22/2016 17:34:44


OxTheAutist 
Level 58
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Leaving the EU is fucking stupid for Scotland.

I don't give a fuck about England, if UK leaves then Scotland gets an easy majority. There won't be the people who think "what if we don't get in the EU?" because, even if Scotland doesn't get in the EU (which it WILL; but this is for sake of argument) then we wouldn't be any better off with England?

The EU is the only reason people in Scotland voted "No", at all. The guarantee of the EU is the only thing England had leverage over, and if they fuck that over it may as well be 100% "Yes".

Also, when I walk down the street, I still see "Yes" stickers. All the "No thanks" stickers are gone, because that is not a popular view anymore. The "No" voters are either a) dead, b) moved back to England or c) changed their mind. It's that simple.
"Brexit": 2/22/2016 17:45:03


Angry Koala
Level 57
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General did you read the thread about Spain? The Basques alongside Catalonians and Scots are mainly europhile and want a greater integration of their future states into a federal Europe. Is that difficult to understand from an American? Then imagine Scotland as something like Virginia inside the US, this is really close. Europe's founding fathers were mainly Germans and French, because they wanted a peaceful Europe no longer suffering from wars such as ww1 and ww2: today is the 100 years anniversary of the battle of Verdun, one of the bloodiest battle that occurred in contemporary Europe with unimaginable cruelty and inhumanity. 100 years is not that far,and instead of fighting about Europe and destroying it we should remember about this day that saw the atrocities committed due to European nationalism, Europe was created because of this, strengthen European values and culture, and encourage peace. We as Europeans do have similarities, and I really hope to see a federal Europe created in the near 20 years.
"Brexit": 2/22/2016 17:48:46


OxTheAutist 
Level 58
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+1 Panda. When Scotland is separated from England I'm all for Eurification.

as long as England isn't involved.
"Brexit": 2/22/2016 17:56:06


GeneralPE
Level 56
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Hold up. I am not really understanding. They want greater integration into Europe, but less into Spain/UK? Why do they think Brussels would understand them better than London or Madrid? At least English come from the same isle, and not from Poland. I get that they want freedom, but don't see how joining the EU would get them that.

Peace is ok, but honestly, industrialized nations with modern technology are never going to fight (do you actually believe Russia and the US would ever go to war?), and the EU is just taking away freedom and national determination, while flooding the Continent with 'refugees'.
"Brexit": 2/22/2016 18:06:26


Eklipse {TJC}
Level 56
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Sincerely, an eu citizen that doesn't give a damm about britain staying in the EU or not.

"if they want to leave, let them go, since the first day they entered the EC then the EU they just slowed down and blocked the process of integration in Europe"

I think the U.K is being a bit undervalued here. Here's just some of what the EU will lose if Britain leaves:

-London, one of the world's foremost financial centers on-par with New York City and Beijing.
-One of Europe's largest militaries, plus nuclear stockpile.
-A permanent member of the U.N security council.
-A G8 member.
-2.6 Trillion GDP

Not to mention, Brexit would severely damage the EUs image. To spectators this event would make the EU appear as weak,dysfunctional, and unable to satisfy its membership. The loss of the U.K quite likely will encourage other EU members with high Euro-skepticism to leave as well.

The Basques alongside Catalonians and Scots are mainly europhile and want a greater integration of their future states into a federal Europe. Is that difficult to understand from an American?

Yes, because those states are already part of their respective unions. From an American perspective it would be like Maine splitting off and joining Canada, you're leaving one union for another which totally destroys the point of gaining independence in the first place.

Then imagine Scotland as something like Virginia inside the US, this is really close.

If we're going to use this analogy with the EU being a "United States of Europe" than the U.K would be equivalent to Virginia with Scotland as more akin to a massive county.

we should remember about this day that saw the atrocities committed due to European nationalism

You speak of nationalism as an evil thing, yet the independence movements you cherish are based on nationalism. That's why some of us are confused, your views seem really inconsistent from an outsider perspective. How can you support nationalist independence movements while simultaneously denouncing nationalism and encouraging a federal union?
"Brexit": 2/22/2016 18:09:39


OxTheAutist 
Level 58
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Violent nationalism is terrible. Peaceful protesting, like the "Yes" campaign is brilliant.

For example, locking Nigel Farage in a pub in Edinburgh. That was some cool, peaceful protesting :D
"Brexit": 2/22/2016 18:20:39


SirSalty
Level 49
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Nigel Farage needs to be locked in a pub, indefinitely.
"Brexit": 2/22/2016 18:50:30


OxTheAutist 
Level 58
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I am sad they let him out though =(
"Brexit": 2/22/2016 18:58:24


Angry Koala
Level 57
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I think the U.K is being a bit undervalued here. Here's just some of what the EU will lose if Britain leaves:

-London, one of the world's foremost financial centers on-par with New York City and Beijing.
-One of Europe's largest militaries, plus nuclear stockpile.
-A permanent member of the U.N security council.
-A G8 member.
-2.6 Trillion GDP


It has never been undervalued, again sorry if I offended you Sir, but I wasn't targeting the British people as a whole, but (some of the) British politicians, particularly the mayor of London, who despite of the concessions made by Europe is still denigrating Europe. Europe has made mistakes, but people tend to forget the European achievements and improvements surpass them. This is not only the british as it can be found elsewhere like in France with the FN, that wants to disintegrate Europe reintroduce the Franc instead of the Euro, reintroduce customs and national borders and endanger the common market.
About Britain, I dont think they would leave Europe, according to the last polls the British are against leaving the EU, the current leader of the Labour party is very Europhile and the British share the shame values as the rest of Europe, so Brexit isn't something (I hope) very serious.

Not to mention, Brexit would severely damage the EUs image. To spectators this event would make the EU appear as weak,dysfunctional, and unable to satisfy its membership. The loss of the U.K quite likely will encourage other EU members with high Euro-skepticism to leave as well.


This is actually a good thing, the EU as grown really too fast, may I remind you we let 10 countries to join the European Union in one year (2004), whereas we couldn't afford to spend that much money to help our eastern partners. There are many projects to reduce the EU to the core nations, and I think this could be a good idea to reduce the EU members to the most motivated nations such as France, Spain, Germany, Italy or the Netherlands, and focus the federal union on these nations.

Yes, because those states are already part of their respective unions. From an American perspective it would be like Maine splitting off and joining Canada, you're leaving one union for another which totally destroys the point of gaining independence in the first place.


I think you do not get what is going on, this is perhaps because of your lacks of knowledge about our history: one union was forced whereas the other one would be decided and chosen by the people democratically.


If we're going to use this analogy with the EU being a "United States of Europe" than the U.K would be equivalent to Virginia with Scotland as more akin to a massive county


wrong, Scotland was a country for centuries, something we cant tell about Virginia.


You speak of nationalism as an evil thing, yet the independence movements you cherish are based on nationalism. That's why some of us are confused,your views seem really inconsistent from an outsider perspective. How can you support nationalist independence movements whil simultaneously denouncing nationalism and encouraging a federal union?


Nope, Basques want independence from Spain and France, because their culture, language and ethnicity are entirety very different (we are even not indoeuropean, because we are the people that were in Europe before the invasion of indoeuropeans ever started), we have a long history as the oldest people still living in Europe. You cannot get it if you are not familiar with our history and culture. Nevertheless we are in favor of Europe, and integrating it because we identify ourselves with Europeans values, and we know that our culture and nation would be respected and recognised inside Europe, as much as any nations such as Romania or Ireland.
"Brexit": 2/22/2016 19:14:05


Major General Smedley Butler
Level 49
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Hopefully Britain is freed from the yoke of Eurovision too.
"Brexit": 2/22/2016 19:27:07


GeneralPE
Level 56
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"wrong, Scotland was a country for centuries, something we cant tell about Virginia."

Then why are you comparing it to Virginia!!!?!?!??!
"Brexit": 2/22/2016 19:28:51


Angry Koala
Level 57
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Yes Eurovision is a shame, Italy boycotted it for years, it could definitely be improved to avoid such idiocies like Conchita Wurst... the Austrian ladyboy... Nevertheless the general degradation of culture is not only European but Worldwide.
"Brexit": 2/22/2016 19:40:17


[AOE] JaiBharat909
Level 56
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^I actually agreed with what Angry Koala just said there.
"Brexit": 2/22/2016 19:52:07


Angry Koala
Level 57
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Peace is ok, but honestly, industrialized nations with modern technology are never going to fight


Yes sure... ww1 was a war led by very industrialized nations, with modern artillery and technology, a conflict between the most powerful armies of that period, that eventually led to millions of death. The Anniversary of Verdun (02-21-16) is an example that humanity sadly never change... People during ww1 were hoping this would be the last war (see "la der des ders" meaning "The war to end all wars") guess what, a new world war started 20 years later...
"Brexit": 2/22/2016 20:03:17


Eklipse {TJC}
Level 56
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There are many projects to reduce the EU to the core nations, and I think this could be a good idea to reduce the EU members to the most motivated nations such as France, Spain, Germany, Italy or the Netherlands, and focus the federal union on these nations.

In such a scenario it's unlikely the EU would want to integrate small Spanish splinter nations.

wrong, Scotland was a country for centuries, something we cant tell about Virginia.

It doesn't matter what Scotland used to be. I'm talking about levels of organization. IF the EU is to become a fully fledged federal government than this is how the power structure would break down in comparison to the U.S:

EU=Federal Government
U.K,France,Germany,etc=State Governments
Scotland,Basques,etc=County Governments

Plus, you were the one who made the Scotland/Virginia comparison originally. So I don't get why you now argue against your own analogy.

Basques want independence from Spain and France, because their culture, language and ethnicity are entirety very different

That makes no sense. The EUs culture,language,and ethnicity are even more different. Those living in Madrid might not be exactly the same as those in Basque, but they're a lot more similar than those living in Brussels or Berlin. In the EU the center of power would be even further departed from your homeland than it would be staying with Spain.

You cannot get it if you are not familiar with our history and culture.

That's not a counterargument. I could counter all of your criticisms of the U.S with "You simply don't get it because you don't know our history and culture", but I'm sure you wouldn't accept that as a valid response.

one union was forced whereas the other one would be decided and chosen by the people democratically.

Basque has been part of Spain for hundreds of years. There reaches a point when you need to just leave the past be and move on. To me, this seems an equivalent of U.S southerners shouting "The South will rise again!".

To clarify my overall stances, I believe that people should always have the right to vote on whether they want to remain in a nation or not. However, I will almost always argue in favor of unity. I support the right of people to have independence if they so choose, but I also reserve the right to criticize the decision to split up.
"Brexit": 2/22/2016 20:41:59


Angry Koala
Level 57
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In such a scenario it's unlikely the EU would want to integrate small Spanish splinter nations.


Very unlikely, tell me what are your sources? And why Europe would refuse a nation recognized internationally, if a referendum for self determination is finally allowed by Spain and France, and if people vote yes. Again a very irrelevant comment from you.


It doesn't matter what Scotland used to be. I'm talking about levels of organization. IF the EU is to become a fully fledged federal government than this is how the power structure would break down in comparison to the U.S:

EU=Federal Government
U.K,France,Germany,etc=State Governments
Scotland,Basques,etc=County Governments

Plus, you were the one who made the Scotland/Virginia comparison originally. So I don't get why you now argue against your own analogy.


So if I understand your point, history does not matter according to you, even if Scotland and Euskadi used to have their own states, and if one day they achieve independence they will be states not counties. Your own comparison with counties is so irrelevant, since none of these territories were ever counties, they were kingdoms or states, never counties, again if you know nothing about Basque or Scottish culture you better avoid posting idiocies here.


That makes no sense. The EUs culture,language,and ethnicity are even more different. Those living in Madrid might not be exactly the same as those in Basque, but they're a lot more similar than those living in Brussels or Berlin. In the EU the center of power would be even further departed from your homeland than it would be staying with Spain.


That makes no sense only to you, again you dare judging us whereas you know nothing about our culture and people, how are we closer to the Spaniards than the Belgians or Germans, see my own example : I am Basque and I have no Spanish citizenship, I do have the French one, furthermore none of my ancestors (as far as genealogical researches have been made in my family) were Spanish, nevertheless they were Basques: spoke Euskara, had Basque culture, and were part of the Basque ethnicity. Me and my family do not identify ourselves as being close or similar to the people of Madrid.


That's not a counterargument. I could counter all of your criticisms of the U.S with "You simply don't get it because you don't know our history and culture", but I'm sure you wouldn't accept that as a valid response.


In Europe we study the history of the US in history and English classes for years, sorry to disappoint you about this but even if I'm not an expert, I know a little bit about American culture and history, I can't say the same about your knowledge about Basque or even general European culture, after reading your posts here.


Basque has been part of Spain for hundreds of years. There reaches a point when you need to just leave the past be and move on. To me, this seems an equivalent of U.S southerners shouting "The South will rise again!".

To clarify my overall stances, I believe that people should always have the right to vote on whether they want to remain in a nation or not. However, I will almost always argue in favor of unity. I support the right of people to have independence if they so choose, but I also reserve the right to criticize the decision to split up


Nope I have never been part of Spain, my family and my ancestors weren't Spanish, unity is okay as long as the people are in favour of it, about Spain and Basques this is not the case, their former state of Navarre (Nafarroako erresuma) was conquered by Castile during the 16th century, it was a violent invasion, not something we could say as a peaceful or democratical process of union. Gosh please make some researches before trying to convince people with wrong facts.
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