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A Revolutionary Idea...: 2/29/2016 07:58:57


Strategos
Level 54
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...CUSTOMER FEEDBACK!

When players quit ladders, why not have a screen pop up to ask them why they quit before they are allowed to quit. For example:

Reason for quitting...

I am going on vacation.
The template is repetitive/boring/not good enough.
I dislike the map.
I have too many games right now.
I only joined to try to get a trophy. I don't care about the template.
Other. (Allow players to type in a reason.)

-------------

Look at the 3v3 ladder. Lots of teams joined it. Few stick around to continue to play. Why?

I have my ideas:

- Settings decrease the fun factor
- Too much bean counting: this increases the amount of time needed to play at a high level.
- Too much bean counting: with teammates in different time zones, cooperation/communication about the bean counting becomes cumbersome/annoying. Quit the ladder and end the misery.
- Too much bean counting: playing alone with two alts is also annoying.
- Few people want to play a low-fun, high-maintenance template again and again when the pick lottery often determines the outcome before you even deploy for the first time. It's like dating an ugly girl who is a perfectionist and control freak and believes in no sex until marriage.

Edited 2/29/2016 08:04:07
A Revolutionary Idea...: 2/29/2016 09:11:20


[WM] Gnuffone 
Level 60
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i quite agree in first part of the post.

I am highly against your second part of the post though.

I really think, and i am sorry if it is not, the mainly reason you want change 3v3 ladder is because, as it is now, you don't stand a chance vs me/szew :P

Being more serious, before ladder got released, the template played atm in 3v3 ladder was basically the most common 3v3 template Europe played in realtime games (except was allowed attack only), so Fizzer used the most played template doing the right thing.

I will answer point by point with my point of view.

Settings decrease the fun factor

not for me, the most fun setting is where i have the complete control of what is happening and almost no luck is involved. It is not fun for me focus in a game and then get bad luck, sorry.

Too much bean counting: this increases the amount of time needed to play at a high level.


only a little, in most of my games during turns i don't have to think that much, sometimes i don't even speak with szew and just commit.

Too much bean counting: with teammates in different time zones, cooperation/communication about the bean counting becomes cumbersome/annoying. Quit the ladder and end the misery.


This is your fault, YOU should get teammate willing to cooperate with same timezone etc.

Too much bean counting: playing alone with two alts is also annoying.


playng alone have upside and downside, i still think, if you have the motivation to do it, you can play with alts.

Few people want to play a low-fun, high-maintenance template again and again when the pick lottery often determines the outcome before you even deploy for the first time. It's like dating an ugly girl who is a perfectionist and control freak and believes in no sex until marriage.


Let's not joke, europe is never a lottery, otherwise how my team would be 28-1 if sometimes you lose even before to start? :)You would expect the best team have like 70%/80% winrate with such template.

To end, we got dozen of ugly and luck dependant and boring template, go to play ladder 2v2 if you want play for fun and without need to think anything, but don't blame the only good template we currently have.

We have template where you literally lose by luck or lottery pick, still you never cried about them. (3 template of rt ladder, 2v2 ladder...)

Edited 2/29/2016 09:13:17
A Revolutionary Idea...: 2/29/2016 10:27:15


Strategos
Level 54
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One satisfied customer. One who has stopped playing ladders. Creating a mechanism for customer feedback would help all ladders improve.

Now, with respect to your statements, Gnuff.

1. "the mainly reason you want change 3v3 ladder is because, as it is now, you don't stand a chance vs me/szew..." No. I truly don't enjoy the template. Time/effort > enjoyment/fun. My work schedule makes it difficult to make ladder runs of any sort. Invite me to a 3v3 if you are so sure about your prowess. We can play one 3v3 after another. I am guessing that I have won about 60-70% of the hundreds of team games I have played against you and Sze. Maybe you need to go 38-1 against me to make it 50-50!

2. "the template played atm in 3v3 ladder was basically the most common 3v3 template Europe..." No. cycling orders changes quite a bit. It adds more bean counting.

3. "the most fun setting is where i have the complete control of what is happening and almost no luck is involved." Then you would be in favor of changing how picking works. Currently, you don't have complete control over picking, only partial control.

4. "how my team would be 28-1." There aren't many top teams. You enjoy the settings. You feel motivated. You have time/energy to play. So you win. The picking phase has a pick lottery element to it.

5. "the only good template we currently have." If the template is so good, why do so many people stop playing? Customer feedback would tell us why. Not everyone enjoys cycling orders, 0% SR, missing transfer- or attack-only settings, or even Europe 3v3.
A Revolutionary Idea...: 2/29/2016 12:32:52


ps 
Level 59
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i agree asking for feedback when player is quitting would be beneficial, uservoice it?
A Revolutionary Idea...: 2/29/2016 13:08:28


Beren • apex 
Level 62
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Agreed. That's an excellent idea. It should also record the number of games that player has played on the ladder since the last time they submitted that form though to prevent players from joining and leaving the ladder in order to spam responses
A Revolutionary Idea...: 2/29/2016 14:17:47


[WM] Gnuffone 
Level 60
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2. "the template played atm in 3v3 ladder was basically the most common 3v3 template Europe..." No. cycling orders changes quite a bit. It adds more bean counting.

You are wrong, everyone was playing with cycle order lately even in rt 3v3 eu :)

3. "the most fun setting is where i have the complete control of what is happening and almost no luck is involved." Then you would be in favor of changing how picking works. Currently, you don't have complete control over picking, only partial control.

If you mirror you reduced any risk on lottery. Picking diferent set of pick between teamamte increase the chance of lottery. I am completely fine as pick works. I also enjoy no luck cycle pick btw.
4. "how my team would be 28-1." There aren't many top teams. You enjoy the settings. You feel motivated. You have time/energy to play. So you win. The picking phase has a pick lottery element to it.

nope, if it a lottery you would lose A LOT by just being in a losing position where u cannot do anything for win. Your description fit completely with 2v2 ladder imho.

5. "the only good template we currently have." If the template is so good, why do so many people stop playing? Customer feedback would tell us why. Not everyone enjoys cycling orders, 0% SR, missing transfer- or attack-only settings, or even Europe 3v3.

I usually ask why a team left if it is a good team and i know them, and most of feedback where like:

-teammate got booted, i will join with a new team.
-lost too many games, i may join again when i feel improved.
-no time for warlight lately, busy irl.

To end, seems like you should like 2v2 ladder based on what you wrote, go to play it and enjoy it! Fast, esy template, not too ccomplex, cross your finger and hope to don't get blind countered by opponent picks!
A Revolutionary Idea...: 2/29/2016 14:50:03


Strategos
Level 54
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I don't care that much about any of the ladders to argue about them, Gnuffone. They can be better. You like one. I don't like any of them.
A Revolutionary Idea...: 2/29/2016 14:52:07


[WM] Gnuffone 
Level 60
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you opened the thread, not me xD
A Revolutionary Idea...: 2/29/2016 15:22:38


ℳℛᐤƬrαńɋℰ✕
Level 55
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I agree with Strategos on Customer Feedback. But why has not Fizzer implemented that already, it seems like basic thing to do if one wants to appeal to majority and earn money from it. To me it seems he just don´t care and replies to every suggest: you can uservoice it!

We can´t force fizzer to make customer feedback, he needs it, not us! If hes not going to read it anyways or change anything what community sees best fit, even if majority vote - its waste of time! This just proves the worthlessness of uservoice or why there has not been any real Polls!

Am no going to touch the Ladder issue: too much criticism towards them!
A Revolutionary Idea...: 2/29/2016 15:51:04


Strategos
Level 54
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Main point: customer feedback. One customer (me) dislikes all ladders. Another customer (Gnuffone) likes a ladder. That's only two customers. So it is meaningless.
A Revolutionary Idea...: 2/29/2016 15:53:43


ps 
Level 59
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actually, the main point to take from this thread is that the picking stage in 3v3 europe =
dating an ugly girl who is a perfectionist and control freak and believes in no sex until marriage.


Edited 2/29/2016 15:54:06
A Revolutionary Idea...: 2/29/2016 17:02:03

wct
Level 56
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^^ +1
^ lol
A Revolutionary Idea...: 2/29/2016 22:13:31


Benjamin628 
Level 59
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I think Seasonal is still the worst.

Edited 2/29/2016 22:13:55
A Revolutionary Idea...: 2/29/2016 22:29:24


ChrisCMU 
Level 60
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1) Feedback option would be great

2) 3v3 ladder settings are good. Not sure why people are not playing it...I am.

3) Gnuff is right on picks. I used to hate mirror picks on EU WR (and told him as much then), but on this format I like them much more often than I like non mirror. I think a large majority of players on that ladder don't realize that point.

4) Yes, many ladders can be improved, if not all. We've been over RT issues and 2v2 template issues a LOT.

5) is participation really down on 3v3? There are 27 teams currently ranked (ours is not yet) or 81 currently ranked players. On the 2v2 ladder, there are 79 ranked teams...or 158 ranked players. BUT, I would expect a 3v3 game to last %50 longer than a 2v2 game (I think they are less turns than final earth 2 picks each, but there is more time on pick stage and then you have 2 extra people to wait a possible 3 days and/or take vacations). So if you factor game speed, maybe there would be more like 40 teams ranked or 120 players ranked. Still less than 2v2 ladder, but not by as much. It is also harder to find a team (you have to know twice as many people available to play). Anyway, not sure participation is really an issue in my mind.
A Revolutionary Idea...: 3/11/2016 19:59:35

Semicedevine
Level 59
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The main idea here:

3v3 europe = "dating an ugly girl who is a perfectionist and control freak and believes in no sex until marriage."

~wise customer review for Warlight 2016
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