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Seven Years War map - historical feedback needed: 4/3/2016 11:43:33

Murk
Level 54
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Hello all!

I'm working on a map of the Seven Years war (1754-1763), one of the first multi-continental conflicts.

Obviously, there's still a lot of work to be done in its aesthetics, consistency, balance, gameplay, etc.
Before I get to that, however, I want to make sure I've got a solid historical basis - that countries are correct, territories have the right names, borders have the right shapes. That's where I need your help!

I didn't have a good map to base this off, so it's the result of hours of wikipedia-crawling (and maybe even shadier sites), so I expect there to be a lot of mistakes. Feel free to point them all out.

--
I especially want to be cautious in North America and the African regions. To prevent this map from becoming overly Eurocentric (which it will be, of course, being a dominantly European war), I want those regions to be more than just European colonies. Documentation of who lived where I found was often contradictory and vague, though. Even more, tribes and peoples are often sensitive social issues, and I don't want to offend anyone if it can be prevented. I hope one of you (or more) can help me out here.

Many thanks in advance!

The map so far: https://www.warlight.net/SinglePlayer?PreviewMap=53684
Seven Years War map - historical feedback needed: 4/3/2016 12:05:57


+Skapis9999+
Level 58
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So i am greek and i will help you with the names in greece.. Adrianoupol is Thrace. Both western and eastern. But you can keep it like this.. Manastir is wrong. You could reanme Kosovo to Monastiri(this is in greek) That region you named Manastir is Thessalia. Your Thessalia is Epirus.Archipelago is correct. However, i would name it Agean Sea. Correct the name of Constantinople pls as a region. Last but not least, rename Smirni(Ismir) since this is the biggest and most important city. In greek it is called Ionia though, since a greek tribe named ionians founded lots of cities then in the past.

You could add Malta and Cyprus by the way.. they were key regions for UK, France and Ottoman empire that era.

Edited 4/3/2016 12:07:25
Seven Years War map - historical feedback needed: 4/3/2016 12:18:01


{Canidae} Kretoma
Level 57
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Awesome map! I will start researching to help you out. ;)
Edit:
Due to its wealth and great importance in the war, i would advice to divide Silesia more, increase its income and also make boni for upper and lower Silesia.

Edited 4/3/2016 12:30:19
Seven Years War map - historical feedback needed: 4/3/2016 12:28:44

Murk
Level 54
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So i am greek and i will help you with the names in greece.. Adrianoupol is Thrace. Both western and eastern. But you can keep it like this.. Manastir is wrong. You could reanme Kosovo to Monastiri(this is in greek) That region you named Manastir is Thessalia. Your Thessalia is Epirus.Archipelago is correct. However, i would name it Agean Sea. Correct the name of Constantinople pls as a region. Last but not least, rename Smirni(Ismir) since this is the biggest and most important city. In greek it is called Ionia though, since a greek tribe named ionians founded lots of cities then in the past.

You could add Malta and Cyprus by the way.. they were key regions for UK, France and Ottoman empire that era.


Thanks! I tried to use the names used in the Ottoman Empire at that time, but seems I mixed up a few. Eventually, conistent Greek names will be better than a few messy Ottoman names, I think.
I wanted to add Izmir anyway, seems I forgot.

I'm not sure about Malta and Cyprus. I know they are important, but it didn't seem fair to add them without adding the Coastal areas of North Africa and the Middle East too, which would be a lot of extra territories. I'll reconsider, though.
Seven Years War map - historical feedback needed: 4/3/2016 12:40:19


Death 
Level 59
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A couple of mistakes I've noticed :

(you don't need to add the accents, but I'm going to point them out anyway as a minor mistake :))

Podznanskie -> Poznańskie
Podznan -> Poznań
Krakowskie powiat -> Krakowskie (Krakowskie means "of Kraków" so it's explicit enough)
Godziesze? Subszowa? Can't quite put my finger on those two and have no idea where you took these from ^^
Inowrocklawskie -> Inowrocławskie
Vovoideship -> Voivodeship (all the instances)
Plockie -> Płockie
Chelmo -> Chełmno
Chelmínskie -> Chełmińskie (dunno where you got the í from)
Nowodorsk -> Nowodworskie
Stupski -> Słupskie
Gdansk -> Gdańsk
Chojniki -> Chojnickie
Leczyckie -> Łęczyckie
Warminskie -> Warmińskie
Sandomierski -> Sandomierskie
Mackowskie -> Maćkowskie
Lviv -> Lwów (for God's sake, don't use the Ukrainian name in the time it wasn't used at all. I understand you use names for some cities in English, but please, do this one in Polish. Please)
Chelm -> Chełm
Braclawskie -> Bracławskie
Wolynskie -> Wołyńskie
Pinskie -> Pińskie
Mscislawskie -> Mścisławskie
Minskie -> Mińskie
(could also change Minsk to Mińsk, but I guess it's better to use the English name here)
Polockie -> Połockie
Piltyn -> Piltyń
Zmudzkie -> Żmudzkie
Upyte -> Upita
Wilénskie -> Wileńskie
Optionally, Vilnius -> Wilno (though that could create confusion, so better not)
Optionally, Krakow -> Kraków

That's it in the Commonwealth region. You don't have to put in all the accents, I understand it might be a pain, but please, PLEASE fix the typos. And make Lviv Lwów. I beg you.

Edited 4/3/2016 12:41:03
Seven Years War map - historical feedback needed: 4/3/2016 12:42:31


Death 
Level 59
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I'll try to spot any eventual mistakes outside the Commonwealth, too, but I'm not going to be as effective as Polish is my native language.
Seven Years War map - historical feedback needed: 4/3/2016 12:59:48

Murk
Level 54
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I'll try to spot any eventual mistakes outside the Commonwealth, too, but I'm not going to be as effective as Polish is my native language.


That's a good long list, thanks. Got them noted.
True, some of these came from English maps, others German, a few from already-existing warlight maps, even (even a few French, I think).
I thought about trying to get them all consistent by myself, but I had no idea where to start. I'll list both the Polish as the English names for now, and decide on using English/local names when I'm confident I've got the local.
Thanks again.
Seven Years War map - historical feedback needed: 4/3/2016 13:00:14


Death 
Level 59
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Okay, here goes for other nations (stuff I noticed so far, that is)

Elblag -> Elbing (it's the German name and it was much more used than the Polish name at that period, also Elblag is owned by Prussia)

If you want to use Turkish names for the Ottoman places, I'd suggest :

Constantinopel -> Constantinople (wasn't Istanbul yet at the time and should avoid confusion)
Adrianopel -> Edirne

(not sure about others, so I'll leave it)

Also, the city of Ankara is not part of the Ottoman Empire bonus.

Portugal :

Breaganca -> Bragança
Evora -> Évora

Spain :

Santiago de compostella -> Santiago de Compostela
Leon -> León
Badajos -> Badajoz
Caceres -> Cáceres
Cartagena -> Murcia (I mean, bonus named "Kingdom of Murcia" without a territory named Murcia? O_O)
Basque province -> Vizcaya
Guadelajara -> Guadalajara

France :

Bearn -> Béarn
Rousillon -> Roussillon
Monpellier -> Montpellier
Gamargue -> Camargue
Vivarez -> Vivarais
Bourbonois -> Bourbonnais
Angoumois -> Angoulême
Vendome -> Vendôme
Berri -> Berry
France-Comte -> Franche-Comté
Gatinois -> Gâtinois
Flanders -> Flandres (fits better)

Also, maybe remove the Généralité thingies? More annoying than helpful and doesn't really make a difference unless it's named after a city, in which case you could keep them.
There are also a couple of territories I'm not sure about, so maybe a native French speaker would be better.
Seven Years War map - historical feedback needed: 4/3/2016 15:33:19


Naglfar
Level 56
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do you want to have the correct name for the provinces/regions/territories in that time, or as they are called after WW2 ?!?
and also: do you want to use english names or original language names?!?

because there are difficult questions to answer.
e.g.:
Breslau/ today Wrocław
Zwischen 1630 und 1670 war Breslau mit der Schlesischen Dichterschule ein Zentrum der deutschen Literatur.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breslau#Geschichte
between 1630 and 1670 Breslau was with its silesian poetry school a centre of german literature (my translation)

Prag / today Praha
1784 schlossen sich die vier bisher selbstständigen Städte Hradschin (Hradčany), Kleinseite (Malá Strana), Altstadt (Staré Město) und Neue Stadt (Nové město) zur gemeinsamen Stadt Prag zusammen.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prag#Fr.C3.BChgeschichte_bis_zum_21._Jahrhundert
this means, that Prag was founded in 1784, out of 4 (german language names) towns. Prag has (had) the oldest german university.

this two cities had a changeful history with changing population. around the seven-years-war they had the german names, because their population was (mostly) german speaking.

also other cities and regions.

if you want to use this names, i would support you with this map and i could do the names of the territories of the "holy roman empire of german nation" (this is the full (englisch translated) name of the "Heiliges Römisches Reich Deutscher Nation" at that time)

send msg, if u want support

Edited 4/6/2016 17:33:30
Seven Years War map - historical feedback needed: 4/3/2016 16:17:06


Zephyrum 
Level 60
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Lviv -> Lwów (for God's sake, don't use the Ukrainian name in the time it wasn't used at all. I understand you use names for some cities in English, but please, do this one in Polish. Please)


Bahahahahaha the poles' wet dream will finally come true xD

~~~

In Brazil:

*Captaincy -> Captaincy-General (Or Capitania Geral, if you want it in native language)
Captaincy here generally refers to the hereditary ones dating back in 1532, adding the -General avoids confusion.

*Sao Salvador -> Salvador (Some like to add the "Sao" for whatever reason... It was no longer the official name for a while when the 7YW came by. In addition, the correct form is "São", not "Sao")

*Continent of Sao Peter -> Rio Grande do Sul
Never heard about this name...

*Captaincy of Para -> Captaincy-General of Grão-Pará (east)
Pará is a modern day state. Back then, it was called 'Grão-Pará" (lit. Greater Pará) that engulfed all the brazilian amazonia.

*Sao Luís -> São Luís

*Rio Negro jungle -> Captaincy-General of Grão-Pará (west)
Well, I can't say the name isn't accurate, but it definetely isn't a province/administrative name, and it's not common in any way :P Alternatively, you can just use "Brazilian Amazonia".

*Recife should be a part of Pernambuco (it's the state capital) and definetely worth less than Salvador. Salvador was the capital (AND SHOULD STILL BE! >:C), and Recife's golden age was over since the dutch gave them the finger and left. In fact, in a couple more years, Bahia would steal all of western Pernambuco from them ^w^

*State of Brasil vs State of Grão-Pará and Maranhão?
This division never existed. Might make them both united on one superbonus. Also for whatever reason São Luís is not part of it...

*Cities Value*

Assuming your goal is historical accuracy and not balancement (hinted by the standalone bonuses that are cities), the value of the cities seems off in every way.

On a scale of power back in the day:

1st: São Paulo (industrial center of the country, had a golden age starting very soon after the seven years war)
2nd: Rio de Janeiro (ugh, this huge slum -.- anyway, back then it was the political center of the country, which strenghtened up it's power, being one of the first big cities in here)
3rd: Salvador (glorious be the real capital, it was a very large city; not particularly rich, just extremely large)
4th: Recife (as soon as the dutch left them, the city went to shit)
5th: Belém (important natural harbor and estuary, wasn't very big but was definetely much richer than all of the northwest and quite above average living conditions for the time)
6th: São Luís (another shitpile built by frenchmen we regret conquering, home to a bunch of corrupt politicians since the dawn of time, wasn't rich nor big, several cities in the northeast deserve it's spot more)
7th: Asunción (despite the jesuits being basically a religious illuminati at the time, the moment they ditched indirect influence to direct control, they broke apart; the jesuit attempt to build a state was killed off in two years, most of this time spent ignoring them because they were claiming land nobody wanted/cared about, only when they started actually growing that something was done; was still very easy)

~~~

Outside of Brazil:

Government of Antioquia -> Government of Antiquoia (Antioquia is the turkish city in the levant, Antioch in english. Antiquoia is the city in Colombia. Also, I'm not really sure if "Government" is an accurate way to describe their provincial system...)

Also, their cities are awfully overpowered o_O though you might want a local to discuss that, since I don't really know much about the rest of latin american history.
Seven Years War map - historical feedback needed: 4/3/2016 17:03:08


psykkoman
Level 55
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Well, consistency in naming is important. I am from Czech republic and I found strange that Prague is named in English and other places in Bohemia and Moravia are attempted to be named in Czech, and mostly wrong. I would recommend to use German names for them, because there were part of Austria at the time and German was official language, some Czech names you yoused even didn't existed at the time, and possibly keep English for bonuses names. In latter case, "March of Moravia" should be "Margraviate of Moravia".
If you want to use names in Czech , I can provide you with names of correct spelling, with necessary acutes and wedges. I think difference between e.g. "Ceske Budejovice" and "České Budějovice" is obvious ;)
Seven Years War map - historical feedback needed: 4/3/2016 17:05:38


MrOobling
Level 30
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You have been very generous with the American colonies. The French didn't directly control so much and many tribes were still independent (remove them from the main French bonus). The Amazon wasn't really colonized at this point either. The African cities are also probably worth too much (although in a 7 years war scenario, the whole non-European controlled part would probably be removed with massive stacks).

Edited 4/3/2016 17:06:58
Seven Years War map - historical feedback needed: 4/3/2016 17:12:40

Zahaan Ali
Level 40
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Nice effort on map.... but as an Indian, the lower right part of the map affronts me :P

I'll take time out this week to help you out on that part of the map... although I must admit, I am a novice when it comes to map making in Warlight

Edited 4/3/2016 17:13:19
Seven Years War map - historical feedback needed: 4/3/2016 17:41:08


Жұқтыру
Level 55
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Great map.

You're badly misusing the Russian provinces - either make them all just geographic sites, not administrative, or put in all the Russian provinces, don't merge. Also, even if you did that, Pskov should probably be in a Russia propre bonus since it is on the east of Peipus.

In this time, province was way more commonly used than governorate in English, so

Governorate -> Province

Also, using most common English names of the time.

Russian Tsardom -> Russian Empire
Cesis -> Tsesis
Pskov -> Pleskov
Pärnu -> Pernau
Saaremaa -> Ezel
Lääne -> Gapsal
Virumaa -> Reval
Kexholm -> Viborg
St. Petersburg -> Saint Petersburg
Azov -> Azoff (by the way, there are two Azovs??)
Salonika -> Salonica
Constantinopel -> Constantinople
Ankara -> Ancyra
Krakow -> Cracow
Podznan -> Poznań
Torun -> Toruń
Gdansk -> Dantiscum
Konigsberg -> Königsberg
Elblag -> Elbing
Lviv -> Leopolis
Casteddu -> Cagliari

I will go on later.

Missing tie:

Hordaland <-> Bergen

Edited 4/3/2016 23:31:43
Seven Years War map - historical feedback needed: 4/3/2016 21:39:39


Zephyrum 
Level 60
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You have been very generous with the American colonies. The French didn't directly control so much and many tribes were still independent (remove them from the main French bonus). The Amazon wasn't really colonized at this point either.


Agreed on the french part, but then again, the amazon isn't too rich in the map either. It's pretty much a couple big worthless provinces.

Vilnius -> Lviv


wot
Seven Years War map - historical feedback needed: 4/3/2016 21:42:20


Жұқтыру
Level 55
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Whoops
Seven Years War map - historical feedback needed: 4/3/2016 21:50:22


Death 
Level 59
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Gdansk -> Dantiscum


I beg you pardon?
Seven Years War map - historical feedback needed: 4/3/2016 22:07:51


OxTheAutist 
Level 58
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SCOOOTLAND (ALL SCOTTISH TERRITORIES IN SCOTS DIALECT) (THE MISSING LETTERS ARE GLOT-STOPS / UNPRONOUNCED Gs/Hs & REALLY IMPORTANT)

(pls love me)

Caithness and Sutherland -> Caithness and Suth'rlan'
Western Isles -> Western Islains
Argyll and Bute -> Argyll and Bu'e
Glasgow -> Glesga (also known as Glesca at west, and Glesgae in east, but Glesga is used in both coasts)
Edinburgh -> Embra
Perth and Kinross -> Scone and Kinross
Fife, Stirling and Falkirk -> Fife, Stirlin' and Falkirk
Dunbartonshire, Renfrewshire and Lanarkshire -> Dunbar'onshire, Renfrewshire and Lanarkshire
Wigtown and Kirkcudbright -> Wigtoon and Kirkcudbrigh'

SCOOOOOOOTTTLLAAAAANNDD
Seven Years War map - historical feedback needed: 4/3/2016 22:24:16


Жұқтыру
Level 55
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Seven Years War map - historical feedback needed: 4/3/2016 22:28:56


Angry Koala
Level 57
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Lol Ox I'm not sure your suggestion would be implemented :P
Seven Years War map - historical feedback needed: 4/3/2016 22:47:07


AlternateHistoryGuy
Level 48
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I'd love to test this.
Seven Years War map - historical feedback needed: 4/4/2016 00:24:00


Von Jewburg
Level 35
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Reminds me of the War of the Spanish Succession map.
Seven Years War map - historical feedback needed: 4/4/2016 01:17:27


(AOE) Manchester United
Level 26
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let me know if i can help in any way
Seven Years War map - historical feedback needed: 4/4/2016 04:56:00


Death 
Level 59
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Dantiscum was the most used English name for the time.


Which is what leads me to asking the question.

Murk, do you intend on using native city names whenever you can, using modern English names when available OR using English names used at the time, like Juq suggested? There are many possible ways of naming them and it's best to use one consistent method, imo.
Seven Years War map - historical feedback needed: 4/7/2016 10:30:31


Von Jewburg
Level 35
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Although the map is very nice, the borders can be a little less choppy.

Also, France didn't technically control Indian land. I think it would be wise to make those Indian tribes independent from France's colony.

Also, even though you're cramped for space, it feels odd to see an empire as powerful as Russia have not very many territories. They were a participant in this war as well.
Seven Years War map - historical feedback needed: 4/7/2016 15:06:31


҈ TeeMee123 ҈
Level 45
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Amazing! Looks like one of zxctycxz's maps.
Seven Years War map - historical feedback needed: 4/9/2016 05:03:38


chuck norris
Level 58
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it looks like a fun map to play but its a bit ugly
Seven Years War map - historical feedback needed: 4/9/2016 09:32:50

Murk
Level 54
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Hello all. I had to leave for a while, suddenly, so sorry for the slow response.
I'll try to give you all some attention :)

---
Most importantly: consistent naming.
Murk, do you intend on using native city names whenever you can, using modern English names when available OR using English names used at the time, like Juq suggested?

For some reason, this was something I thought "I'll do it later" of, and then didn't. Now it's a mess, so thanks for all your suggestions.
If possible, I'd like to stick to historical, regional names, but for readability for most warlight players, in latin alphabet. So all suggestions/improvements for local names are welcome. I'll make that first priority today.

South America
*State of Brasil vs State of Grão-Pará and Maranhão?
This division never existed. Might make them both united on one superbonus.

On all other of your suggestions, I'll take your word for it. This distinction, however, showed up often. I believe it was a short-lived distinction, but was made nonetheless. Is that a wellspread myth or something?
Assuming your goal is historical accuracy and not balancement (hinted by the standalone bonuses that are cities), the value of the cities seems off in every way.

True. It was a mix-up between accuracy/balance/ignorance here and there. I want to make it historically accurate for now (so follow your suggestions), but it might be necessary to change it later for balances sake.

Non-European
You have been very generous with the American colonies. The French didn't directly control so much and many tribes were still independent (remove them from the main French bonus). The Amazon wasn't really colonized at this point either. The African cities are also probably worth too much (although in a 7 years war scenario, the whole non-European controlled part would probably be removed with massive stacks).

Also, France didn't technically control Indian land. I think it would be wise to make those Indian tribes independent from France's colony.

This is all very true, and I should make it more clear that the "New France" bonus (as well as Prince Rupert's Land) is Nominal control - it is also why I tried to give the tribes their own bonuses and names. From a European perspective, at that point, the land was French, though it wasn't, of course.
I would say that in a slotted game, only the cities and forts are actually French, but for the map as a whole I wanted to show the French claims (and give North America a superbonus, too).
Would it help to give the native territories bonus colours other than blue, or would that become too sloppy?

The same goes for the amazon - it isn't really worth much in this map, but I think it's strategic value is still too big (you can pretty much attack all of South America from there). I wanted to prevent black spots, though. Suggestions welcome.

For Africa, yes, I assume that if you have a slotted scenario, Africa would either be neutral or very much decreased in value. I didn't want to give the impression that the world ended at Europes borders, though - which is something that happens a lot. The nations around the colonies might not be as strong as Europe, but they are very much there, and that means making them a valid starting position for FFA games.

India
Nice effort on map.... but as an Indian, the lower right part of the map affronts me :P
I'll take time out this week to help you out on that part of the map... although I must admit, I am a novice when it comes to map making in Warlight

Gladly. Especially the Carnatic region might hold plenty of mistakes. It was hard to find which nawabs were independent, which weren't. Sometimes, the Carnatic is referred to as a kingdom of its own, other times it's only shown as "European influence", sometimes as a mess of independent fiefs. Feedback from someone who knows the history more intimately would be welcome.

Russia
You're badly misusing the Russian provinces - either make them all just geographic sites, not administrative, or put in all the Russian provinces, don't merge.

I always prefer administrative to geographic. I also like the fact that Russia doesn't have to many territories, to prevent it from overpowering Europe (as often happens in maps like these). So, I'm cautious with wanting to add all provinces - I do want to do Russian history justice, of course, so do you have any intermediate suggestions? :)

Scotland
SCOOOTLAND (ALL SCOTTISH TERRITORIES IN SCOTS DIALECT) (THE MISSING LETTERS ARE GLOT-STOPS / UNPRONOUNCED Gs/Hs & REALLY IMPORTANT)

This... This requires some consideration. It is latin alphabet, and it might be accurate, but... Well. It seems unfair to all the other countries that do not get their own local quirks in the names. Let me think about it.

Other
Reminds me of the War of the Spanish Succession map.

Only a 50 years difference, so, yeah, it's a bit bigger, but most countries have about the same shape. Especially the silly lines between the colonies are similar. Something I want to work on.
Although the map is very nice, the borders can be a little less choppy.

it looks like a fun map to play but its a bit ugly

Yup. I didn't want to improve aesthetics when there's a good chance I'll have to do borders over, yet. Would be redundant work. Once I think all the historical borders are OK, I'll start cleaning them up.

---

Alright. I'll start working on name consistency (something that really is long overdue). Might take a day or two to get it all in line. Suggestions still welcome. Thanks for the help so far, everyone!
Seven Years War map - historical feedback needed: 4/9/2016 13:01:33


Von Jewburg
Level 35
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I think splitting some of the Russian territories up.
Seven Years War map - historical feedback needed: 4/9/2016 13:14:48


{Canidae} Kretoma
Level 57
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And Silesia.
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