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To those who deify Che Guevara: 4/21/2016 02:56:37


Major General Smedley Butler
Level 49
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Stop. Just stop. All folk here know I am not a uber nationalist American, not a imperialist or corporatist, but please just stop. His firing squads and concentration camps were responsible for more than ten thousand deaths. He admitted to killing more than a thousand. There are records of him executing children.

He sank the Cuban economy from being nearly on par with the US to where the Soviets said it was a complete mess. The Cuban average ,income before the communists rose to power and started working on the economy, was superior than France, West Germany, Denmark and Belgium and it went downward extremely quickly from there.

He raped young laborer girls, he is clearly no savior of the common folk so can we just get past this deification of this awful animal?
To those who deify Che Guevara: 4/21/2016 02:58:43


Darth Darth Binks
Level 56
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But... but... but his clothes! Surely you aren't saying that his clothing line doesn't make up for it all!?

Edited 4/21/2016 02:59:21
To those who deify Che Guevara: 4/21/2016 03:00:40

e_e
Level 6
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he is a communist warrior

that s good
To those who deify Che Guevara: 4/21/2016 04:14:09


BUFFALO
Level 43
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filthy commie
To those who deify Che Guevara: 4/21/2016 04:20:25


Zephyrum 
Level 60
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FINALLY SOMEONE SENSIBLE! People in latin america tend to consider him a deity, savior among men, despite knowing he's a murderer.

Hell, in here, we have a homossexual congressmen who cosplays Che and idolizes him. I wonder if he knows that Che would enjoy hitting him with a couple headshots for not being straight.
To those who deify Che Guevara: 4/21/2016 04:25:26


Imperator
Level 53
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As far as historical socialists go, Che guevara is probably among the better ones to deify. As you pointed out, he killed around 10,000 people, compared to some other guys:

Stalin: 23 million

Mao Zedong: 78 million

Hitler: 17 Million

Pol pot: 2 million

Kim Il-sung: 1.9 million

Edited 4/21/2016 04:28:14
To those who deify Che Guevara: 4/21/2016 04:27:38


Major General Smedley Butler
Level 49
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He committed way too many killings by himself to be considered a hero, he admitted to killing at least a thousand at his own hands. There's socialists/communists better than him, like them not this scum.
To those who deify Che Guevara: 4/21/2016 05:55:09


adrian waco
Level 25
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stop pretending that you care about the ppl who die in wars
To those who deify Che Guevara: 4/21/2016 08:10:25


Angry Koala
Level 57
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All folk here know I am not a uber nationalist American


Well that needs to be confirmed, judging by your last posts.

He sank the Cuban economy


So now you will tell us Cuba was better as an American vassal led by a cruel dictator? Do you think the Cuban revolution came from nowhere?

Poor people of Cuba live better now compared to before when a mafia-like system backed up by the US owned the entire wealth for themselves, so again saying a country was richer before whereas the people was living in worse conditions is completely idiot. This is why GDP is sometimes an irrelevant indicator, compared to HDI and some other more complete measures.

deify Che Guevara


True. You can "deify" Jean Jaurès or Evo Morales instead. Che is more "glamorous" that's perhaps why he is more popular.
To those who deify Che Guevara: 4/21/2016 08:29:43


chuck norris
Level 58
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Hitler: 17 Million
hitler wasnt a socialist he was a fascist
To those who deify Che Guevara: 4/21/2016 08:53:06


Angry Koala
Level 57
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he killed around 10,000 people



Biographer Jon Lee Anderson, (who spent five years studying the topic) has addressed this matter in a PBS forum stating:

"I have yet to find a single credible source pointing to a case where Che executed an innocent. Those persons executed by Guevara or on his orders were condemned for the usual crimes punishable by death at times of war or in its aftermath: desertion, treason or crimes such as rape, torture or murder."

According to this biographer, the number of people killed by che Guevara himself is close to 10 to 20 (counting execution and death during battles)


Again posting random stuff and irrelevant figures Major? Before posting and sharing your own biased views, do it well and try to avoid being irrelevant.

Edited 4/21/2016 08:56:32
To those who deify Che Guevara: 4/21/2016 12:23:47


Major General Smedley Butler
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To those who deify Che Guevara: 4/21/2016 12:27:09


Major General Smedley Butler
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He killed tens of thousands through his concentration camps and death squads, and he killed at least a thousand folk himself. He said so when being questioned before his execution. Also, jam a fire hydrant up your arse if you say I have a bias problem and don't criticize the US too much.
To those who deify Che Guevara: 4/21/2016 12:33:34


Angry Koala
Level 57
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Major, you are far from being competent to judge his life, compared to someone who spent 5 years of his life to write his biography, and is considered nowadays as the most trustworthy in this topic.
El Che never planned to be head of state unlike Castro, this is one big difference.

And as you are talking about death, should we talk about how Che Guevara was savagely murdered and by whom exactly?
To those who deify Che Guevara: 4/21/2016 13:04:03


Major General Smedley Butler
Level 49
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He tried to start a revolution in Bolivia, and he got killed by a firing squad. That's something perfectly sensible to do to him.

Do you honestly think Castro's and Che's Cuba was so wonderful when there were death camps for religious and LGBT folk? When 10% of the population left as refugees?
To those who deify Che Guevara: 4/21/2016 13:10:04


Imperator
Level 53
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hitler wasnt a socialist he was a fascist


The specific type of Fascism applied in germany during the 30's and 40's was called "National Socialism". It entailed an opposition to the free market because "All these nasty jews are exploiting it to oppress germans"; So yeah, definitely socialist in nature.

"Nazi" is just an abbreviation of the much less catchy term "Nationalsozialismus".

Biographer Jon Lee Anderson, (who spent five years studying the topic) has addressed this matter in a PBS forum stating:

"I have yet to find a single credible source pointing to a case where Che executed an innocent. Those persons executed by Guevara or on his orders were condemned for the usual crimes punishable by death at times of war or in its aftermath: desertion, treason or crimes such as rape, torture or murder."

According to this biographer, the number of people killed by che Guevara himself is close to 10 to 20 (counting execution and death during battles)


Again posting random stuff and irrelevant figures Major? Before posting and sharing your own biased views, do it well and try to avoid being irrelevant.


Calm down dude, I posted that figure to make him look good.

Edited 4/21/2016 13:11:39
To those who deify Che Guevara: 4/21/2016 13:53:00


Angry Koala
Level 57
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It's rather funny you despise Che Guevara just because he is a socialist. Some people consider him also as an Anarchist (he was kinda Anarchist actually and his Grandson is himself supporting Anarchist groups), and he is far from being Nationalist or anything like it, since he was himself not Cuban but Argentinian, he tried to launch a world revolution without borders that's why he went in so many fronts (Cuba, Congo, Bolivia, etc).

He tried to start a revolution in Bolivia, and he got killed by a firing squad. That's something perfectly sensible to do to him.


You see? That's why I said earlier you were biased in your views, you are unable to admit his assassination was led by the US (the United States government had sent a team of the CIA's Special Activities Division commandos and other operatives into Bolivia to aid the anti-insurrection effort, a CIA operation orchestrated with the help of some very good people such as Klaus Barbie the Butcher of Lyon!). So it is not as simple as you tend to minimize.
Furthermore he wasn't killed by a firing squad, this is how it exactly happened:
"Sergeant Terán entered the hut to shoot him, whereupon Guevara reportedly said: "I know you've come to kill me. Shoot, coward, you are only going to kill a man." Terán hesitated, then pointed his self-loading M2 Carbine at Guevara and opened fire, hitting him in the arms and legs. Then, as Guevara writhed on the ground, apparently biting one of his wrists to avoid crying out, Terán fired another burst, fatally wounding him in the chest. Guevara was pronounced dead at 1:10 pm local time according to Rodríguez. In all, Guevara was shot nine times by Terán. This included five times in his legs, once in the right shoulder and arm, and once in the chest and throat


A firing squad? Not at all, I do not see anything like it, I really wonder where you had this info, unless you invented it as the number of thousands of death, this would not really surprise me either.

Do you honestly think Castro's and Che's Cuba was so wonderful when there were death camps for religious and LGBT folk?


And you are the one minimizing what is happening currently in North Carolina saying "look elsewhere it is worse", instead of condemning it, your behavior is a pure hypocrisy.
Look I am not deifying Che Guevara at all, I know his flaws (although there are apparently no glaringly obvious quotes to highlight any hardcore homophobia on the part of Che Guevara, he does allude to a disgust of homosexuality in his memoirs, where upon speaking about a particular individual he notes "the episode upset us a little because the poor man, apart from being homosexual and a first rate bore, had been very nice to us...".), but saying he killed thousands of people is a total lie, and was neglected by many biographers.
To those who deify Che Guevara: 4/21/2016 13:58:57


Major General Smedley Butler
Level 49
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“If the nuclear missiles had remained, we would have used them against the very heart of America, including New York City…We will march the path of victory even if it costs millions of atomic victims…We must keep our hatred alive and fan it to paroxysm.”

“A revolutionary must become a cold killing machine motivated by pure hate.”

“We will bring the war to the imperialist enemies’ very home, to his places of work and recreation. We must never give him a minute of peace or tranquility. This is a total war to the death.”


Che Guevara was such a good person, regardless of his own views and statements like above.
To those who deify Che Guevara: 4/21/2016 14:04:05


Angry Koala
Level 57
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"All these nasty jews are exploiting it to oppress germans"; So yeah, definitely socialist in nature.


A rather easy shortcut. Hitler hated both socialism and communism so hard that he worked to destroy these ideologies. Nazism, confused as it was, was based on race, and fundamentally different from class focused socialism.
Twenty-first century commentators like to attack left leaning policies by calling them socialist, and occasionally would follow this up by explaining how Hitler, the mass murdering dictator around whom the twentieth century pivoted, was a socialist himself. There’s no way anyone can, or ever should, defend Hitler, and so things like health-care reform are equated with something terrible, a Nazi regime which sought to conquer an empire and commit several genocides. Tbh, the problem is, this is a distortion of history.
Not only was Hitler not a socialist himself, nor a communist, but he actually hated these ideologies and did his utmost to eradicate them. At first this involved organizing bands of thugs to attack socialists in the street, but grew into invading Russia, in part to enslave the population and earn living room for Germans, and in part to wipe out the "evil" commies.
To those who deify Che Guevara: 4/21/2016 14:05:34


Major General Smedley Butler
Level 49
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Jon Lee Anderson's book is incredibly biased due to it being cowritten by the Castro Regime, it's useless to say that it's good at portraying him in a neutral light.
To those who deify Che Guevara: 4/21/2016 14:07:15


Major General Smedley Butler
Level 49
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Hitler was left/left center economically, but yeah he hated actual communists.
To those who deify Che Guevara: 4/21/2016 14:22:55


Angry Koala
Level 57
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Major these quotes have to be taken in the context of this period, I do not defend Che Guevara in many points, but these statements were made during very particular moments (Missil War Crisis when the US could have wiped out Cuba entirely), so there is no surprise to see these comments as a reaction.

Jon Lee Anderson's book is incredibly biased due to it being cowritten by the Castro Regime, it's useless to say that it's good at portraying him in a neutral light.


Incredibly biased when it defies your own views right? Stop being childish Major. Jon Lee Anderson is an American investigative reporter, war correspondent and staff writer for The New Yorker, and his work received a widespread acclaim, so if I had to choose between him and you to look for reliable and trustworthy informations about Che Guevara, there would be no question about it, Anderson's biography is a long term endeavor, whereas yours is just one daily thread where you only show your own biased views on some very selected and redundant topics.

Edited 4/21/2016 14:24:19
To those who deify Che Guevara: 4/21/2016 14:35:53


Imperator
Level 53
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A rather easy shortcut. Hitler hated both socialism and communism so hard that he worked to destroy these ideologies.


Hitler hated both communism and capitalism, but for different reason. He hated Capitalism due to the aforementioned "nasty jews" using it to "create a republic and ruin germanies economy". He also hated Communism due to the whole rising up and overthrowing the elite thing, since this was kind of the basis of his power.

Socialism, being sort of a worst of both world solution, is something hitler actually got behind, and indeed he even described himself as a socialist by renaming the "German worker's party" to the "National Socialist German Workers' Party" when running for chancellor.

ALso, just take a look at some of these gems in their "25 point-plan", or party platform, which was adopted by hitler on the same day he renamed the party to include the description of "Socialist":

7. We demand that the state be charged first with providing the opportunity for a livelihood and way of life for the citizens. If it is impossible to sustain the total population of the State, then the members of foreign nations (non-citizens) are to be expelled from the Reich.


11. Abolition of unearned (work and labour) incomes. Breaking of debt (interest)-slavery.


13. We demand the nationalisation of all (previous) associated industries


14. We demand a division of profits of all heavy industries.


15. We demand an expansion on a large scale of old age welfare.


16. We demand the creation of a healthy middle class and its conservation, immediate communalization of the great warehouses and their being leased at low cost to small firms, the utmost consideration of all small firms in contracts with the State, county or municipality.


17. We demand a land reform suitable to our needs, provision of a law for the free expropriation of land for the purposes of public utility, abolition of taxes on land and prevention of all speculation in land.


20. The state is to be responsible for a fundamental reconstruction of our whole national education program, to enable every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education and subsequently introduction into leading positions. The plans of instruction of all educational institutions are to conform with the experiences of practical life. The comprehension of the concept of the State must be striven for by the school [Staatsbürgerkunde] as early as the beginning of understanding. We demand the education at the expense of the State of outstanding intellectually gifted children of poor parents without consideration of position or profession.


____________________________________________________________

and in part to wipe out the "evil" commies.


As a defender of socialism yourself, I'd think you'd be familiar with the usual bullcrap that Socialism and communism are not the same, but I guess not.

Edited 4/21/2016 14:36:45
To those who deify Che Guevara: 4/21/2016 14:58:57


Angry Koala
Level 57
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Nazism was a very "catch all" movement, purposely made to attract the most electors possible even if some ideologies were opposing or confronting themselves. So again you can find with Nazism a mishmash of policies (nationalism, socialism, conservatism, liberalism). As an example, Hitler said he did not have to nationalize industries (and he did not) because he had already nationalized the people. He did not follow any known economic models, so to assign a liberal/conservative label on him is only an attempt to associate libs or conservatives to Hitler - guilt by association. Old trick.
And Hitler like a lot of radical politicians at the time rejected all conventional politics (does it remind you someone?...) and was consciously attempting to create a movement which stood clearly outside the traditional frame of liberal-conservative. Hence, a party which could legitimately call itself "socialist" but which rejected international worker solidarity, and which could legitimately call itself "nationalist" but which rejected the forces of Hohenzolern monarchism which had created the German nation in the first place.

As a defender of socialism yourself, I'd think you'd be familiar with the usual bullcrap that Socialism and communism are not the same, but I guess not.



Did you read my post entirely or not? I clearly mentioned Hitler hated both Socialism AND Communism? Before posting learn how to read someone's post correctly.
To those who deify Che Guevara: 4/21/2016 15:10:30


Imperator
Level 53
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Nazism was a very "catch all" movement, purposely made to attract the most electors possible even if some ideologies were opposing or confronting themselves


No, they were not a "catch-all" part in any sense; They were pretty much populists, which at the time meant kill all the jews, and also socialism.

You seem to be making erroneous assumptions about them. When I provide proof for my argument, you can't just say "No that's wrong because I have a fantasy in my head in which it is wrong". Again, here is their party platform:

http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/riseofhitler/25points.htm

Can you provide an official nazi document saying that they hated socialists?
To those who deify Che Guevara: 4/21/2016 15:19:34


Angry Koala
Level 57
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No, they were not a "catch-all" part in any sense


Yes it was.

You seem to be making erroneous assumptions about them. When I provide proof for my argument, you can't just say "No that's wrong because I have a fantasy in my head in which it is wrong". Again, here is their party platform


I already read Hitler's program, and as I mentioned earlier they hated Socialists but also shared many similarities and policies with them (as you showed it earlier), but same can be told about Conservatists, and as you seem to be unable to read my posts entirely I will quote it again to you: "it was a party which could legitimately call itself "socialist" but which rejected international worker solidarity, and which could legitimately call itself "nationalist" but which rejected the forces of Hohenzolern monarchism which had created the German nation in the first place", hence the "catch-all" point I made.
To those who deify Che Guevara: 4/21/2016 15:23:43


GeneralPE
Level 56
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They hated communists, not socialists.
To those who deify Che Guevara: 4/21/2016 15:26:30


Angry Koala
Level 57
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Can you provide an official nazi document saying that they hated socialists?


And about whether Hitler hated or not socialists, when he came to power he attempted to dismantle trade unions and the shell that remained loyal to him, he supported the actions of leading industrialists, actions far removed from socialism which tends to want the opposite. Hitler used the fear of socialism and communism as a way of terrifying middle and upper class Germans into supporting him.
To those who deify Che Guevara: 4/21/2016 15:27:02


Angry Koala
Level 57
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They hated communists, not socialists.


Explain your point.
To those who deify Che Guevara: 4/21/2016 15:28:31


Imperator
Level 53
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I'm still waiting for my document.
Posts 1 - 30 of 72   1  2  3  Next >>   

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