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WarLight Mastery: Intelligence or Training?: 4/29/2016 02:42:20


Iron Mike 
Level 64
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Considering the top 10% of players, what do you think contributes most to their success, intelligence or training/diligence? Obviously it is a mix of the two, but what do you think plays the biggest factor and why? I am not talking the top 2-3%, but the top 5-10%. Let's say the current top 50 1v1 ladder players.
WarLight Mastery: Intelligence or Training?: 4/29/2016 02:47:25


The Lord
Level 52
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1% inspiration 99% perspiration
WarLight Mastery: Intelligence or Training?: 4/29/2016 03:03:15


The Lord
Level 52
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^+1
WarLight Mastery: Intelligence or Training?: 4/29/2016 03:03:50


{Shredtail2}
Level 56
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It is a combination of the two. It takes both in order to be a top player.
WarLight Mastery: Intelligence or Training?: 4/29/2016 08:19:10

madking321
Level 51
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Mainly training.
WarLight Mastery: Intelligence or Training?: 4/29/2016 09:14:48


Legi
Level 56
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up to 10% is Talent, the rest is Training.

if a Player is willing to learn is another question.
WarLight Mastery: Intelligence or Training?: 4/29/2016 09:32:12


Math Wolf 
Level 62
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My way too long answer (because I think it's an interesting question). I hope some top players will jump in with their opinion instead of a bunch of trolls.

I think it's about 50/50. I was already pretty good (say top 25%) after 5 to 10 games and my experience with statistics and data-analysis helped me to quickly 'get' most of the obvious superior strategies. I've seen others with a similar trajectory.

The extra jump to the top 10% requires some training to really understand some of the nuanced and advanced tactics.

Intelligence is more of a necessity than training though: you can't just train warlight and become a top player without a decent grasp of game mechanics, some basic math and spatial insight. A very intelligent player can easily become a top player by training a little bit, though.
On the 1v1 ladder, training may be more important than intelligence. Since it's the same template, you can learn a lot by playing often. Intelligent players should rule the seasonals as they are able to more quickly adapt to different templates and settings without much training.

But, honnestly, I think it's more 25/25/50 intelligence/training/effort.
Effort is not the same as training. I've had a lot of training, but I'm not always putting a lot of effort in games (due to time constraints in my case).
Effort means things like researching the opponent, considering different starting positions, options, thinking forward a few turns, doing income calculations or estimations, extensive communication with teammates, etc. Even if you are not among the most intelligent players and you haven't trained much, putting in effort and going over things will give you a lot of information that can help you win games. But, effort pays off more if you are more intelligent and trained as you are able to use the information efficiently.
WarLight Mastery: Intelligence or Training?: 4/29/2016 09:37:02

madking321
Level 51
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I think i agree with wolf on this. Pulling out the graphs an home-made equations is usually the best anwser.
WarLight Mastery: Intelligence or Training?: 4/29/2016 09:49:56


Cata Cauda 
Level 57
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Beancounting. Especially due to SR.
WarLight Mastery: Intelligence or Training?: 4/29/2016 11:11:23


Wally Balls 
Level 58
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A super genius could probably be a top player without doing much work. Somebody who absolutely worked their ass off and made Warlight their life could probably be a top player with only average intelligence. But for most people, it's likely a combination of the two.

However, I shared a labor intensive strategy I use yesterday and multiple people who have been #1 on the ladder replied basically saying 'that's too much work' so it clearly doesn't take Kobe Bryant-esque preparation and diligence to be even in the top 1% or higher. Though presumably those guys do better than average in the intelligence/natural aptitude department.
WarLight Mastery: Intelligence or Training?: 4/29/2016 12:27:35

Semicedevine
Level 59
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A super genius could probably be a top player without doing much work. Somebody who absolutely worked their ass off and made Warlight their life could probably be a top player with only average intelligence.

Dude... did you srsly just now like... roast yourself?
WarLight Mastery: Intelligence or Training?: 4/29/2016 12:28:31

Semicedevine
Level 59
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See the thing is you need intelligence for training... and then training for intelligence sooo...

#lulz #MINDFUCK #wut
WarLight Mastery: Intelligence or Training?: 4/29/2016 12:38:12

smileyleg 
Level 61
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Math Wolf made a great point regarding effort I think, which is probably overlooked somewhat.

I know I could do much better with increased effort, especially on picks. I never spend more than five minutes on them (attention span). I know that is quite low from a recent thread.
WarLight Mastery: Intelligence or Training?: 4/29/2016 12:49:48

Semicedevine
Level 59
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hehe... smileyleg you know that game we played in RPCL2?

yea I spent 2 days on those picks LEL

#onlyOPwhentryhard

Edited 4/29/2016 12:50:08
WarLight Mastery: Intelligence or Training?: 4/29/2016 13:09:26


Wally Balls 
Level 58
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Dude... did you srsly just now like... roast yourself?


No, but you made a lame attempt to roast me. You left out:

But for most people, it's likely a combination of the two.


One is never a good judge of their own intelligence. Idiots don't realize they are idiots. But based on numerous objective factors such as standardized tests, education etc, I'm quite certain I am of at least above average intelligence. As I'm sure many that play this game are. It's not a game dumb people would likely enjoy.

Edited 4/29/2016 13:17:13
WarLight Mastery: Intelligence or Training?: 4/29/2016 13:42:45


Iron Mike 
Level 64
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I'm quite certain I am of at least above average intelligence. As I'm sure many that play this game are. It's not a game dumb people would likely enjoy.


That's an interesting point. I wonder what's the average IQ of the WL community?
WarLight Mastery: Intelligence or Training?: 4/29/2016 15:40:34

Semicedevine
Level 59
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very interesting question as many great players who ive met on here usually do above average in school

idk maybe its something with strategy games

Edited 4/29/2016 15:48:53
WarLight Mastery: Intelligence or Training?: 4/29/2016 15:53:53


kynte
Level 51
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The vast majority of people would consider themselves of above average intelligence.
WarLight Mastery: Intelligence or Training?: 4/29/2016 16:10:52


Bane 
Level 59
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My IQ is at least like 3
WarLight Mastery: Intelligence or Training?: 4/29/2016 16:16:02


kynte
Level 51
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Eh... I'd give you more of a 2, maybe a 2 and a half on a good day.
WarLight Mastery: Intelligence or Training?: 4/29/2016 16:47:13

Mike
Level 57
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Intelligence is the obvious answer otherwise anybody could top the ranks, but its actually most of the time the same players (ladders, coin games, tourneys, ...).
Plus intelligence lets you apply whatever you learnt on training to its optimal way, possibly even better way than the way you were trained.
Intelligence also helps in adapting to new situations, when training gives tips for rather known situations.
WarLight Mastery: Intelligence or Training?: 4/29/2016 16:53:04


Zenvue
Level 54
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Training will only get you so far.. Just like Mike said, intelligence helps you apply whatever you learn in training in an optimal way.. But, training is still needed. If you know how to do something but have never done it before then you will most likely not be the best at it.. For instance, you can learn all you want about Poker but until you play it a lot you will not be that good at it.
WarLight Mastery: Intelligence or Training?: 4/29/2016 17:02:24


szeweningen 
Level 60
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I think it helps to have a mathematical background. People like Odin or Giant Frog are a really good example of what I expect of a potential top player. In my opinion some experience in game theory might help with giving you a good perspective to start with, after that it's mostly practise with/against best players. I'd say it is still 90% your own analysis, I think objectivity and constantly eliminating blunders is the best way to improve.
WarLight Mastery: Intelligence or Training?: 4/29/2016 17:13:50


GeneralPE
Level 56
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I think it has been mentioned already, but my two things that make someone good:

BEANCOUNTING
and
EFFORT
WarLight Mastery: Intelligence or Training?: 4/29/2016 17:35:53

Semicedevine
Level 59
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EFFORT for BEANCOUNTING
WarLight Mastery: Intelligence or Training?: 4/29/2016 17:41:15


TBest 
Level 59
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In other news, Semice have been corrupted by my mind.
WarLight Mastery: Intelligence or Training?: 4/30/2016 00:35:58


The Hysterical Koala
Level 57
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Does humility get its own category? :p

(but seriously most players that are not at the top have no reason to take their own skills seriously *ahem*, and most of the time ppl shouldnt blame luck for their loss)
WarLight Mastery: Intelligence or Training?: 4/30/2016 12:49:07


Math Wolf 
Level 62
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I wonder what's the average IQ of the WL community?

No idea about the community as a whole really, but for top players, I'm claiming it's probably around 120.

As a reference, I'm doing a PhD in Statistical Data-Analysis and I feel that most top players are (on average) of a somewhat similar intelligence as me (again as a reference: I don't know and don't care about my own IQ, but based on my background and what I'm able and not able to do, it should be somewhere in the 120-150 range). I don't know people close enough to really guess at an individual level, but based on technical discussions with some of them, I'm pretty sure 130+ is probably not exceptional.

A higher IQ doesn't necessarily make you a better player. People with extremely high IQ's are often autistic and will not be able to always understand other player's style or thought processes, especially when radically different from theirs and lose games by simply optimizing their own tactic, but not taking into account the variability that an opponent may display.

Also note that IQ is an artificial construct trying to measure something that is not easily measured. As with so many things, it's not only how large it is that matters, but especially how you use it. Someone can be very intelligent and still behave like a moron while someone of average intelligence can really seem more intelligent by using his/her capacities to the fullest.
WarLight Mastery: Intelligence or Training?: 4/30/2016 14:25:33


Iron Mike 
Level 64
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Thanks for your input on this thread Math Wolf.

A higher IQ doesn't necessarily make you a better player. People with extremely high IQ's are often autistic and will not be able to always understand other player's style or thought processes, especially when radically different from theirs and lose games by simply optimizing their own tactic, but not taking into account the variability that an opponent may display.


This is a great point. I see this behavior exactly displayed with my daughter. She is in a gifted program and has had her IQ tested twice as part of the admission process. We have been told it is somewhere around 145 to 160 (they give you a range at her age since the tests they give to children are different and are a less precise metric when it comes to outliers).

I am teaching her chess. I am an above average chess player but certainly no Kasparov. She shows flashes of brilliance in her strategy, but will often lose by failing to adapt to changing tactics or gets so lost in what *she* is trying to do, gets blind sided by an alternate and sometimes inferior strategy.
WarLight Mastery: Intelligence or Training?: 5/1/2016 07:03:34


Master Jz 
Level 60
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What counts as effort (in terms of time)? An average of 5 minutes per turn? 10 minutes? 30 minutes?

For the top 10%, the most important factor is training/diligence. If you look at the people at the top of the ladder, you'll find a lot who've played 3000+ games. It's not unheard of to find people who've played more than that. It's rare to find someone in the top 50 (who's not an alt) with less than 1000 games.

I'd give creativity a spot as well, at least 10%. There's only so much you can learn from other people.
Posts 1 - 30 of 33   1  2  Next >>   

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