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Why aren't airlift cards considered strategic?: 5/3/2016 14:45:36


Pooncrew 
Level 59
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Why aren't airlift cards considered strategic? The whole point of a teammate is to aid you. No?
Why aren't airlift cards considered strategic?: 5/3/2016 14:54:13


QueefBalls
Level 59
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I just want to add on to this a bit. In a team game, without airlift cards, your teammate can't really get you out of a jam unless they border you. and even then, you'll have to transfer those troops all the way up to your front lines. I don't really see why any team game should be played without airlift cards quite frankly.

But they're also necessary for most 1v1 games. For example, if you take out an enemy in one corner of the map, but also have a front to defend in another corner of the map, the troops you have leftover from the first battle are completely useless until you can pass them up enough, which may take 7-8 turns, maybe more. At that point you might as well be playing local deployment.
Why aren't airlift cards considered strategic?: 5/3/2016 14:56:41


Veloces
Level 43
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The inconvience is part of the strategy so you could lure an opponents stack somewhere useless to get the edge. In team games that's what gift cards are for. The fact that airlift cards take priority over anything else makes them alittle overpowered for everyday strategic games.
Why aren't airlift cards considered strategic?: 5/3/2016 14:58:24


master of desaster 
Level 64
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They are considered unstrategic cause they happen before your turn. Just like abandon or bomb card, it's often just a gamble to guess where the opponent will deploy his armies and the right use of that card can easily change the outcome of a game singlehandly.
Why aren't airlift cards considered strategic?: 5/3/2016 15:05:21


Cata Cauda 
Level 57
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Have to agree here. They happen before all other attacks, like the abandon card. Thats why, for exmaple, the blockade card is considered as "strategic" because you take a huge risk if you dont play it correctly. While with an airlift card you cant do much wrong.
Why aren't airlift cards considered strategic?: 5/3/2016 15:06:09


QueefBalls
Level 59
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But isn't that part of the strategy? Taking into account the risk that the territory you attack might have a bigger stack than you expect? It's the same as a player stockpiling reinforcement cards really. Plus it's not like only one player has airlift cards, the attacking player could also lift to his strong territories to make them even stronger.
Why aren't airlift cards considered strategic?: 5/3/2016 15:10:23


QueefBalls
Level 59
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I also just want to clarify that I'm of the belief that no 1 template is more strategic than another. For example, I don't actually think fog is more strategic than no fog. For example, with normal fog, some might argue that your attacks come with a risk that an opponent might beat you to a territory with a larger stack, or that you never know when you're gonna run into someone else. However, I'd counter that with the fact that when there's no fog, there's nowhere to hide, and your opponent can see your every move and adjust their strategy accordingly. In short, I believe that all templates are equally strategic, the strategy for each is a little bit different. Just my 2 cents.
Why aren't airlift cards considered strategic?: 5/3/2016 15:13:11


TeamGuns 
Level 58
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If airlifts happened after the turn they'd be strategic, but before it's just too OP.
Why aren't airlift cards considered strategic?: 5/3/2016 15:18:08


master of desaster 
Level 64
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You can always claim that making good predictions is strategic. But if you look at how good those 3 cards i mentioned are, then there it is always kind of tic tac toe. Not a great value of strategy imo
Why aren't airlift cards considered strategic?: 5/3/2016 15:29:50


Pooncrew 
Level 59
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I have to agree with queef on this one.
Why aren't airlift cards considered strategic?: 5/3/2016 16:54:58


QueefBalls
Level 59
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Nice to see someone else on here is sensible
Why aren't airlift cards considered strategic?: 5/3/2016 17:25:55


҈ TeeMee123 ҈
Level 45
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says someone from the pooncrew
Why aren't airlift cards considered strategic?: 5/3/2016 17:33:24


QueefBalls
Level 59
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*Poon Squad. Pooncrew is a player's name
Why aren't airlift cards considered strategic?: 5/3/2016 17:36:56

smileyleg 
Level 61
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I could see airlifts adding to the strategic value in some templates if they are exceedingly rare (one per game maybe). Then it's a big deal about when you use it for maximum benefit.

The problem with airlifts is pretty simple though:
1 - If the player with higher income/position wins inevitably, there's not much strategy, it's just an expansion race
2 - To win when behind in income/position you need to deploy and move your armies better than your opponent

Airlifts make point 2 irrelevant, because you can just airlift your armies where you need them.
Why aren't airlift cards considered strategic?: 5/3/2016 17:46:32


(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 50
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@Smileyleg Meowwwwwwwwwww! Well they are very abundant in Wasteland Style..

To me it is more of a style thing. With many airlift cards/diplo cards there are just different forms of strategy.

Edited 5/3/2016 17:47:49
Why aren't airlift cards considered strategic?: 5/3/2016 17:47:44

M. Poireau
Level 53
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I agree that common Airlifts reduce the strategy of the game.

An Airlift which happens *after* all attacks (and therefore fails if the territory is lost) would be an improvement, I'd say.
Why aren't airlift cards considered strategic?: 5/3/2016 17:48:34


(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 50
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@M.Poireau Meowwww! Do you say that because of WS? I plan to include even more airlift cards and gift cards as well.

Currently there are not enough airlift cards in WS. This itself ironically contributes to a new strategy despite being against my intention.

Edited 5/3/2016 17:50:13
Why aren't airlift cards considered strategic?: 5/3/2016 17:49:03


GeneralPE
Level 56
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@M. Poireau
Make it a different card. I like it.
Why aren't airlift cards considered strategic?: 5/3/2016 17:52:12

M. Poireau
Level 53
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Feline,

No, not WS specifically. It's just what smileyleg said earlier:

Consider that a game with an infinite number of Airlift cards is essentially a game where you get to redeploy your full income every single turn.

You never have to worry about how many armies to deploy in different parts of the map, how many to allocate to expansion, how many leftovers you will have after taking a bonus...

Essentially, with infinite Airlifts, the geography of the map almost disappears (except where you border your enemy), giving the player with higher income a huge advantage.

Basically, you don't have to plan ahead as much or think as hard. Not game-breaking, but I agree that it's not the most "strategic" feature.
Why aren't airlift cards considered strategic?: 5/3/2016 17:54:06

M. Poireau
Level 53
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(Would love to hear why you think there aren't enough Airlifts in WS - we've never run out yet, even after almost a full tournament of games. What new strategy does it create?)

(As an example, with fewer/none Airlifts, you could try to trap enemy armies in a corner with a Blockade. That would be quite a clever and effective maneuver! But because Airlift cards are plentiful, that strategy is no longer possible.)
Why aren't airlift cards considered strategic?: 5/3/2016 18:11:02


Semicedevine
Level 59
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I also just want to clarify that I'm of the belief that no 1 template is more strategic than another.

There is a great totally strategic template called Duel where you have two players with one who starts with 1005 income.

Just as equally strategic as every other template ofc
Why aren't airlift cards considered strategic?: 5/3/2016 18:14:37


Semicedevine
Level 59
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then, according to your claim, I guess all lotteries are now strategic too, right?
Why aren't airlift cards considered strategic?: 5/3/2016 18:28:31


Zephyrum 
Level 60
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Weighted Random is considered strategic, therefore, so is Lottery, duh!
Why aren't airlift cards considered strategic?: 5/3/2016 18:49:44


(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 50
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@M.Poireau One purpose of airlift cards in WS is to make attacks hard...
Also it is not true that in WS those with less income necessarily lose despite so many airlift/abandon/blockade cards.

Abandon cards can be VERY strategic even when there are so many of them. There is an entire new world of strategies when there are a LOT of abandon, blockade and airlift cards.

Edited 5/3/2016 18:50:28
Why aren't airlift cards considered strategic?: 5/3/2016 19:05:39


QueefBalls
Level 59
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Sorry Semice when I typed that I should have said that lottery games are the exception to my belief.
Why aren't airlift cards considered strategic?: 5/3/2016 19:08:11


(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 50
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Also almost any game on Duel?
BTW my favorite card is emergency blockade/abandon...when it is huge.

One of my favorite patterns on a map is the map almost getting divided into two parts separated by Walls (lines of huge neutrals).

Edited 5/3/2016 19:10:07
Why aren't airlift cards considered strategic?: 5/3/2016 20:37:37


Жұқтыру
Level 55
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I don't get the arguments here, yes, it gets priority, so? It doesn't cancel out any moves, and you still have to think about where to send it, where your foe will attack, and when to wield it.
Why aren't airlift cards considered strategic?: 5/3/2016 21:36:01

smileyleg 
Level 61
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@Feline: I'd say there's way too many airlifts right now.

Easy airlifts make it just too easy to maintain an advantage.
Why aren't airlift cards considered strategic?: 5/3/2016 22:01:26


(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 50
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@smileyleg Well in our tournie game you guys actually had an early advantage but despite the airlift cards we later removed this advantage.

Edited 5/3/2016 22:03:05
Why aren't airlift cards considered strategic?: 5/3/2016 22:11:57

Hasdrubal
Level 56
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IMHO, airlift should be done different than what is in this game rule. Someone mentioned that they should be used as last card in a turn, which makes more sense.

Also, neither game should have both AL (like it is used in WL) and EBC.

There are another possibilities, which make it as strategic move:

1. Airlift starts as first order (before any moves or attacks) in the way that starting territory lose airlifted units, and they are temporarily put in buffer. Next turn they land on target location as LAST order (like blockade card, or gift card). If target location is not in friendly hands they land on starting location, BUT, if the starting location is lost, then AL card is wasted, and all armies in the process are eliminated. Therefore if someone AL units, there will be try, by opposition, to catch and eliminate both starting end ending location, or both must be secured by user.

2. Airlift starts as first order, removes armies from starting location, and finish as last order during the same turn, posting armies on landing location, and if it is not in friendly hands, the rule is the same as in #1.

3. Airlifts are used to transfer between connected lands (there must be undistrupted connection between starting location and ending location) otherwise it should not be possible to be used. So, big stacks on one location cannot be useful on another location if opposition holds interconnection.

4. Airlifts can be used to transfer only limited ammount of units, equal to part of income, or multiplication of ending location bonus.

5. Airlift card is used to "bank" units, so they are added to first reinforcement card that can be used from next turn, save to way they are usually used. Thus, units that are AL can be again on the map in later turns, if ever (if no reinforcement card is obtained, they will not be back). For this option, maybe it is better to have another card, but this can be useful, too.

I think that all of these 5 thesis can add strategic momentum to AL cards, if not the solution to use them as last order.
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