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TTIP: Eroding democracy further: 5/8/2016 00:25:48


Angry Koala
Level 57
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It was almost too late when the world woke up to the realities of the Trans Atlantic Trade And Investment Partnership (TTIP), with recent informations revealed through the "TTIPleaks".
This so called free trade treaty which really appoints to a licence for corporations to do as they like, was being negotiated in secret between the USA and the EU, with security surrounding it so tight that even our elected representatives were not allowed to know what it contained.

Needless to say what it contained was very nasty and undemocratic. TTIP has an equally evil twin, TPP, the Trans Pacific Partnership. Unfortunately most South East Asian nations are not as well equipped as Germany, France, Great Britain and other European nations to stand up to American bullying.

Democracy in Europe has been already heavily undermined by the dictatorial behaviour of the Brussels bureaucracy. The sovereignty of European Union member states is set to be further eroded if the U.S.-EU Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) is achieved.
TTIP: Eroding democracy further: 5/8/2016 00:27:39


GeneralPE
Level 56
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What!?!?! I actually agree with Panda! And so does Trump!
TTIP: Eroding democracy further: 5/8/2016 00:28:31


Жұқтыру
Level 55
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I don't see actually what is wrong with it. America is dominating, equally, and everyone in every country, well, maybe not the socialist ones, can do the same. It's a great free-trade agreement, and the TPP will be even better, and getting some more competition.
TTIP: Eroding democracy further: 5/8/2016 00:32:35


Angry Koala
Level 57
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it is not a fair free trade agreement, one party would have exceptions and particular treatment whereas the other would have to relinquish some important things that would impact our daily life! They could simply refuse it but oh well, Eurobureaucrats are so corrupted and tempted by lobbists' money that they would reduce our rights and freedom for it!
TTIP: Eroding democracy further: 5/8/2016 00:41:41


Жұқтыру
Level 55
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You're being very vague, maybe it is bad, but I don't see anything bad to it.
TTIP: Eroding democracy further: 5/8/2016 00:43:42


Angry Koala
Level 57
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it is not a question of being vague or not, do your own research and make your own opinion about it. You are enough old I presume to do it alone without my help Juq.
TTIP: Eroding democracy further: 5/8/2016 00:44:37


Zephyrum 
Level 60
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Freedom is not money, you don't get more free by taking freedom form corporations.

Trade dominance is not destroying democracy in any way. What destroys democracy is denying the people free trade like the EU does nowadays. No excuse for a "developed" country to deny their people to grow economically. You are only harassing your own traders, both big corporations and small businesses.
TTIP: Eroding democracy further: 5/8/2016 00:50:25


Benjamin628 
Level 59
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Money: Slavery of the 21st Century.

Unfortunately Woodrow Wilson completely destroyed Democracy.

Edited 5/8/2016 00:51:14
TTIP: Eroding democracy further: 5/8/2016 01:02:42


Angry Koala
Level 57
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What destroys democracy is denying the people free trade like the EU does nowadays


Free trade is well established in Europe, among Europeans. We are actually the region of the world with the biggest achievements and advancements in terms of free trade (people from the EU are free to move and make their own business with almost no restriction in any EU state).

Free trade is ok, unfair and imposed free trade without any transparency isn't.

No excuse for a "developed" country to deny their people to grow economically.


Wrong, since most of the people are against it, so there is no excuse to make at all. The thing is most of the nations' leaders are making their deal in total secrecy without telling the people about what is going on and what is being discussed, do you really believe this is the right method Zeph? I thought you condemned this kind of behavior, unless you are a real Dilma supporter since she also uses the same awful stratagems; duping and swaying the Brazilians exactly the same way.
TTIP: Eroding democracy further: 5/8/2016 01:09:38


Sułtan Kosmitów 
Level 63
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1. It was possible for the EU Parlament Members to see what is in it.
2. From the interview with polish ones I think I know how it looks like.
3. Quoting someone above:
It's a great free-trade agreement

unfortunately it is not. It should contain only one sentence: With the day DD-MM-RRRR all customs are abolished. The problem is politics and big companies fight for privileges and money.
4. Big companies and goverments are mostly against free market. US and EU are comunistic. And big companies don't need competition.
5. But the idea of TTIP is not bad, just the current shape of it.

EDIT:
What destroys democracy is denying the people free trade like the EU does nowadays


Free trade is well established in Europe, among Europeans. We are actually the region of the world with the biggest achievements and advancements in terms of free trade (people from the EU are free to move and make their own business with almost no restriction in any EU state).


Not at all. In the 19th century there were no customs/tariffs in Europe at all. There were no passports and no visas. Socialists like thouse in EU invented them.

Now with the migration crisis beggining the whole Schengen will crush which is as sure as fuck

Probably the whole EU will. I hope.

P.S. I am not a democrat so it is nice something destroys democracy :)
Law is more important then the will of the majority.

Edited 5/8/2016 01:20:51
TTIP: Eroding democracy further: 5/8/2016 01:29:31


Angry Koala
Level 57
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It may not be unclear for some people here, but I am not against Free Trade, I am in favor of it, as long as every awful points are removed in this treaty I am totally up for it, as Sultan pointed out, the current shape of the treaty is not good, and it promotes big companies and strengthens their privileges, and at the meantime it would severely threaten smaller businesses. Big corporaitons heavily collides with governments, and they are a real danger for other normal companies and small scale producers that would suffer greatly with this kind of agreement. This is one of the biggest point that would need to be reconsidered, once this is resolved we could discuss about some other disagreements.
TTIP: Eroding democracy further: 5/8/2016 01:45:49


Angry Koala
Level 57
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Not at all. In the 19th century there were no customs/tariffs in Europe at all. There were no passports and no visas. Socialists like thouse in EU invented them.

Now with the migration crisis beggining the whole Schengen will crush which is as sure as fuck


You were joking here right? No customs before the 19th century? It exists since the birth of the first civilizations. And free trade did not exist either before the 20th century. Socialism is not responsible of customs and barriers of trade, the ones responsible are Nationalists more than anything else. And saying EU is socialist is a total absurdity since most of the European states are led by liberals or conservatives, this is just showing how little you know about European politics.


Probably the whole EU will. I hope.


To be replaced by what? the (current) EU is bad and evil I think we can both agree on this, but it could be reformed. Without EU, nationalisms would be strengthened, and you know what happens next? wars. Remake of the word wars. Not forgetting also that with the EU, free trade finally came to reality in Europe, for better or for worse: see your comrades the Poles, millions of them have access to Western European work market, and trust me about this when I tell you that Nationalists all across Western Europe are not happy to see the "Plombiers Polonais" (nickname given tot he Poles in France looking for low salary jobs) stealing their jobs due to the liberalized market. I think I read somewhere that the UK was currently making new laws against EU labour free trade, trying to stop Eastern Europeans to settle in their country. You wanted the end of the EU Sultan? It will happen sooner than you would expect, do not worry.




P.S. I am not a democrat so it is nice something destroys democracy :)
Law is more important then the will of the majority.


You may be Europhile after all, then you contradict yourself. Eurobureaucrats are making everything against the will of the majority alone, secretly and without being worried at all.

Edited 5/8/2016 01:49:20
TTIP: Eroding democracy further: 5/8/2016 01:50:47


Sułtan Kosmitów 
Level 63
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You were joking here right? No customs before the 19th century? It exists since the birth of the first civilizations. And free trade did not exist either before the 20th century. Socialism is not responsible of customs and barriers of trade, the ones responsible are Nationalists more than anything else. And saying EU is socialist is a total absurdity since most of the European states are led by liberals or conservatives, this is just showing how little you know about European politics.

1863 - 1885 no custom border in the whole Europe. This shows how little you know about history.

liberals or conservatives - rofl. :) All the most important as Germany, France, Belgium, Austria...are socialistic

Free market didnt exist before 20th century - again lol, free market has existit since always, this is a natural system.



To be replaced by what? the (current) EU is bad and evil I think we can both agree on this, but it could be reformed. Without EU, nationalisms would be strengthened, and you know what happens next? wars. Remake of the word wars. Not forgetting also that with the EU, free trade finally came to reality in Europe, for better or for worse: see your comrades the Poles, millions of them have access to Western European work market, and trust me about this when I tell you that Nationalists all across Western Europe are not happy to see the "Plombiers Polonais" (nickname given tot he Poles in France looking for low salary jobs) stealing their jobs due to the liberalized market. I think I read somewhere that the UK was currently making new laws against EU labour free trade, trying to stop Eastern Europeans to settle in their country. You wanted the end of the EU Sultan? It will happen sooner than you would expect, do not worry.


I don't worry about that, I know it will end soon.
EU has no real power to stop wars as it has no army.
I prefer something like ECSC then EU.




You may be Europhile after all, then you contradict yourself. Eurobureaucrats are making everything against the will of the majority alone, secretly and without being worried at all.

I must agree they do everything agains people's will but then they get elected again :) that is how your democracy works.

Edited 5/8/2016 02:07:58
TTIP: Eroding democracy further: 5/8/2016 02:04:09


Angry Koala
Level 57
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1863 - 1885 no custom border in the whole Europe


Proof?

Sorry to disappoint you but I am from a city bordering the Franco-Spanish border, and I can tell you there has always been some kind of border customs, at least since the Middle Age. It always existed until 1993 when the Maastricht Treaty was signed or perhaps there was also a kind of imposed "free trade" when Napoléon invaded Spain x)

liberals or conservatives - rofl. :) All the most important as Germany, France, Belgium, Austria...are socialistic



None of them are actually "socialistic", they are led by conservative or socio-liberal coalitions. Tell me more about Spain, the UK, Italy, the Netherlands or Denmark?
Tell me about Poland? Do you think your country could handle it alone without Europe? Nobody forced you to join the EU you know, and I guess it would be better even for both parties to see you out.
TTIP: Eroding democracy further: 5/8/2016 02:04:40


Benjamin628 
Level 59
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An EU army is irrelevant. Western nations haven't been at war since WW2. Stopping wars in the Middle East is impossible, that place has never had peace for more than 500 years.
TTIP: Eroding democracy further: 5/8/2016 02:08:17


Angry Koala
Level 57
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Classical free market was theorized by Adam Smith (if I remember my economic classes well), so not until the 18th century. And by the time it started to really come to existence we had to wait 200 years more. Wrong, wrong and wrong Sultan.

Edited 5/8/2016 02:09:10
TTIP: Eroding democracy further: 5/8/2016 02:17:14


Sułtan Kosmitów 
Level 63
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@Koala you are putting "=" sign between EU and Europe. That is not right.
We have to have another deffinition of socialism and free market.
Countries with dole or income tax are socialistic without doubt.
TTIP: Eroding democracy further: 5/8/2016 02:19:14


Eklipse {TJC}
Level 56
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I can't believe I'm saying this, but I agree with Angry Koala for once. The TTIP is a terrible idea, it'll do nothing but hurt the common person.
TTIP: Eroding democracy further: 5/8/2016 02:21:17


Angry Koala
Level 57
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Countries with dole or income tax are socialistic without doubt.


So now the US are "socialistic" too? Give me a state that has no income taxes at all, good luck with that. Anyway I guess you do not know what Socialism is. There is no true Socialist states in Europe, no longer since the fall of the Iron Curtain (well the only exception maybe is Belarus not sure). Btw I am fine with nation having a Social-democratic economic model, Scandinavian nations seem to not have any problem with that.
TTIP: Eroding democracy further: 5/8/2016 02:22:16


Angry Koala
Level 57
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well Eklipse I am not always in disagreement with your own opinions either you know x)
TTIP: Eroding democracy further: 5/8/2016 02:22:44


Sułtan Kosmitów 
Level 63
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Yes they dont have problems with that at all. Anders Breivik confirms.
and EDIT: there are several countries without income tax and many which have it for only less then 10% of people (only with highest income)

Edited 5/8/2016 02:26:17
TTIP: Eroding democracy further: 5/8/2016 02:28:31


Angry Koala
Level 57
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I am going to help you on this before leaving Sultan, found a map with states having an income taxation:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax#/media/File:Individual_taxation_systems.png

According to this map the only nations with no income taxation are: Somalia, Western Sahara, Oman and Fiscal paradises... Sultan it is time for you to leave this "socialistic" world of hell! Go to Somalia, before they find you! Better dead than red!
TTIP: Eroding democracy further: 5/8/2016 02:30:16


GeneralPE
Level 56
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I hate income tax. My money shouldn't be the government's. They have no right to it. Feck off
TTIP: Eroding democracy further: 5/8/2016 02:33:27


Sułtan Kosmitów 
Level 63
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That map is manipulated, there are many countries like Arabic ones or Hong Kong where it exists only in theory.

And using your stupid argument (people use that when they are not right), I mean the one leave the country if you dont like it, You dont like the TTIP agreement between US and EU then leave Europe or Us and never come back Koala - just using your train of thoughts

Edited 5/8/2016 02:38:26
TTIP: Eroding democracy further: 5/8/2016 02:33:49


Major General Smedley Butler
Level 49
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Yet they have a right to your other property? Stop being a inconsistent prick.
TTIP: Eroding democracy further: 5/8/2016 02:38:06


Major General Smedley Butler
Level 49
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Fun fact: Al-Shabab and Mogadishu aren't libertarian. The only close faction is Somililand and they're most likely the best place in Somalia as it is.
TTIP: Eroding democracy further: 5/8/2016 02:42:49


Sułtan Kosmitów 
Level 63
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04:42 here so i am going sleap, if anyone want to discuss something with me PM me please. GN.
TTIP: Eroding democracy further: 5/8/2016 03:04:13


Жұқтыру
Level 55
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With the day DD-MM-RRRR all customs are abolished. The problem is politics and big companies fight for privileges and money.


I mostly agree with Kosmitów. Tariffs are a newer thing in the past, they definitely were about in the 1800s, in Europe, but in the 1700s, they were rare, and before that, hardly seen.

All I hear is that "it's secretly bad" - but what is it that is bad? "It's a secret?". I still have not heard one argument that it is bad, other than "it's bad".
TTIP: Eroding democracy further: 5/8/2016 09:08:07


Angry Koala
Level 57
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Tariffs are a newer thing in the past, they definitely were about in the 1800s


I would agree too if it wasn't random stuff not supported by any historical facts. You said I was vague, I guess I can say the same thing about you here.
Customs and taxes always existed. I will take as an example France, since it is my country and as I know better its history.
During the Middle age in France, there were customs and tariffs known as "traites" not only in international borders but also for each region and city having their own particular fiscal policies (we had to wait the French revolution to end this heavily sophisticated fiscal custom system). Back then, you had hundred of different taxes for basically everything, such as droit de rêve or droit de Haut-Passage.
Even during the Roman Empire, customs and taxes existed, you had the "Octavia" taxing imported goods around 12,5% of its value, and this tax had to be paid not only in external borders, but internally for each fiscal circumscription in "Portoria" or custom offices.

We had actually to wait the early modern economists such as Ricardo or Adam Smith (around the 17-18th century) to see modern international trade and free trade being implemented between nations. This hardly existed before.

I still have not heard one argument that it is bad, other than "it's bad".


Did you only read every intervention and comments of this thread? Me and Sultan gave you at least one good reason to say it's bad economically speaking: endangering small scale producers and businesses against transnational and huge corporations colluding with states and eroding further democracy since these huge corporations could attack individuals and societies in these secretive and undemocratic 'justice' proceedings that will be taken directly from the taxpayers' pockets. Gosh we are talking about the biggest economical treaty ever, between the 2 biggest economic zones, the least they can do is have some transparency.

Everyone here for once agree the current treaty is bad excepted you: liberals, socialists, libertarians, nationalists or conservatives from the US and Europe reacted badly about it, and for good reasons.
TTIP: Eroding democracy further: 5/8/2016 15:51:56


Жұқтыру
Level 55
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Did you only read every intervention and comments of this thread? Me and Sultan gave you at least one good reason to say it's bad economically speaking: endangering small scale producers and businesses against transnational and huge corporations colluding with states and eroding further democracy since these huge corporations could attack individuals and societies in these secretive and undemocratic 'justice' proceedings that will be taken directly from the taxpayers' pockets. Gosh we are talking about the biggest economical treaty ever, between the 2 biggest economic zones, the least they can do is have some transparency.


So the only thing you have to say is that it's a bit secretive and is free-trade? I think it should be fine, but that's quite a bit to expect, most things like this are pretty secretive in their "inception".

Everyone here for once agree the current treaty is bad excepted you: liberals, socialists, libertarians, nationalists or conservatives from the US and Europe reacted badly about it, and for good reasons.


Leftists don't like it since it's greatening a free market zone. Libertarians...like it (as the only libertarian here, I say), and nationalists and conserves are afraid of this making their country worse, "stealing" jobs.
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