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Ban Semicedevine Permanently: UserVoice: 5/18/2016 19:55:02


[WL] Colonel Harthacanute
Level 50
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This is for all the people who have been affected by Semicedevine's behaviour.
For The Lost Wolves, The Royal Falcons, Bakkah Mekkah, La Grande Armee, CORP, and Royal Entente.

https://warlight.uservoice.com/forums/77051-warlight-features/suggestions/13892511-ban-semicedevine-permanently
Ban Semicedevine Permanently: UserVoice: 5/18/2016 19:56:34


Nex
Level 59
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Out of curiosity, why do people keep giving this guy manager rights?? Wouldn't you learn after the fifth hijacking?
Ban Semicedevine Permanently: UserVoice: 5/18/2016 19:57:25


OxTheAutist 
Level 58
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dumb/naive/gullible/busy managers
Ban Semicedevine Permanently: UserVoice: 5/18/2016 19:58:38


Nex
Level 59
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But that's only five reasons... six clans hijacked :D
Ban Semicedevine Permanently: UserVoice: 5/18/2016 20:01:40


knyte 
Level 58
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Obviously Semice is a jerk for taking advantage of a broken system. But that doesn't change the reality that:

a) the clan management system is broken and essentially requires larger clans to very closely watch their Manager Rights and heavily centralize their leadership (so you're essentially forcing a very small group of people to manage all day-to-day tasks involving the clan page, recruitment, and member management- or to take a massive risk when it comes to the stability of clan leadership)

b) Manager Rights are not spontaneously transferred; someone with Manager Rights in the Royal Entente decided to a Level 5 account with a 100% boot rate, 4 games played, and a former username of "fuck u" (https://www.warlight.net/Profile?p=1755139223)- knowing full well that anyone with Manager Rights is capable of stripping them from other players

While it does reflect badly on Semicedevine that he gets a kick out of taking advantage of this, it's ultimately the fault of existing Managers for knowingly and willingly taking some frankly very stupid risks. You can't just shove all the blame and punishment on others when you demonstrated a massive failure of leadership and lack of responsibility on your own part.

Edited 5/18/2016 20:02:50
Ban Semicedevine Permanently: UserVoice: 5/18/2016 20:02:49


Жұқтыру
Level 55
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Yeah, giving your manager rights to "I HATE THIS GAME"? That's an omen for sure.
Ban Semicedevine Permanently: UserVoice: 5/18/2016 20:03:33


Sarah
Level 54
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From what I have read he has been using an alt to get the trust of others and get manager rights that he then transfers to his main. What happened with Royal Entente is his alt got banned before he could transfer the MR back to his main and thus ruined the clan.

My condolences to the Royal Entente
Ban Semicedevine Permanently: UserVoice: 5/18/2016 20:05:33


knyte 
Level 58
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Also, I don't get Fizzer's intervention in this case. A transfer of Manager Rights is essentially a transfer of ownership (partial, potentially full) to another person (unless something in the ToS says otherwise and establishes that ownership stays with the original purchaser). Someone in the Royal Entente deliberately transferred this ownership to Semice's alt under no force or pressure to do so. Now Fizzer's made it impossible for Semice (essentially the current owner of RE) to control RE or transfer ownership back, instead seizing ownership of the clan and making it near-impossible for it to be transferred again outside some exceptional circumstances.

From what I have read he has been using an alt to get the trust of others


"Get the trust of others" is a stupid way of shifting the blame; if an account like LORD HACKER I is able to "get your trust" to the point that you'll essentially transfer ownership of the clan to said account, then you are a complete dumbass.

Yeah, Semice is an asshole. But he couldn't have pulled this off himself without people who had way more control over the situation utterly screwing up and making horrible decisions.

Edited 5/18/2016 20:07:38
Ban Semicedevine Permanently: UserVoice: 5/18/2016 20:08:26


OnlyThePie
Level 53
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While this is obnoxious, kudos to all the managers with some damn sense for keeping their clan under control.
Ban Semicedevine Permanently: UserVoice: 5/18/2016 20:09:38


kynte
Level 51
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There's even a warning in the "Manage players" module where you handle Manager Rights. Someone read that and decided it was still totally safe and a smart decision to give Manager Rights to LORD HACKER I.

Honestly, you have no one to blame but yourself. You controlled the situation. You could've trivially avoided this, literally by just not being a dumbass.
Ban Semicedevine Permanently: UserVoice: 5/18/2016 20:15:10


[WL] Colonel Harthacanute
Level 50
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Do not try to twist history to defend Semice, knytie.

Although I admit that the system does need some slight improvements, that does not make Semice any less responsible for his actions. Semice knows that, and it cannot be blamed on anybody else that Semice, after four months of gaining my trust (not under the name "Lord Hacker" as you tried to insinuate above, but under the name "Earl of Wight"), he betrayed us. The fact that he was democratically elected to the position he held which enabled him to gain manager rights by the clan shows just how elaborate his plan was.

Please, knyte, do not get yourself smeared by Semice. I hope to see to it that he is no longer welcome here.
Ban Semicedevine Permanently: UserVoice: 5/18/2016 20:15:14


Onoma94
Level 59
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If I understand correctly, the guy who gave MR to LORD HACKER I was Semice himself - from account "I hate this game (something something)". He played his role well with that accout and gained high position (it's still on clan page), along with MR.
Giving MR to too many people is not wise, but it wasn't as dumb as you make it, knyte.

Edited 5/18/2016 20:15:30
Ban Semicedevine Permanently: UserVoice: 5/18/2016 20:15:39

daftpunk
Level 57
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Yes, the system is fundamentally flawed. Never, at any point, should the person who purchased the clan be in a position where he loses rights.

However, how you can put blame on the innocent party is beyond me. Yes, they were naive, yet they did not ask for or expect this malicious act. The blame is with Semicedevine 100%. Its like saying it was my own fault for getting burgled as I left a window open - foolish, but certainly not my fault someone decided to break in.
Ban Semicedevine Permanently: UserVoice: 5/18/2016 20:17:33


Nex
Level 59
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It also proves again that, with the only exception of Apex, democratically deciding management rights has never been a successful strategy on Warlight. Stick to dictatorships, they tend to be much more stable.
Ban Semicedevine Permanently: UserVoice: 5/18/2016 20:17:48


Жұқтыру
Level 55
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Its like saying it was my own fault for getting burgled as I left a window open - foolish, but certainly not my fault someone decided to break in.


Better analogy - to do drugs. It's not really whoever sold you drugs' fault that you died, it's your fault for buying the drugs.
Ban Semicedevine Permanently: UserVoice: 5/18/2016 20:22:04


[WL] Colonel Harthacanute
Level 50
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I've just received a notification stating that the UserVoice was deleted...
Ban Semicedevine Permanently: UserVoice: 5/18/2016 20:26:35


Welsh Knight
Level 59
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Edited 5/18/2016 20:47:45
Ban Semicedevine Permanently: UserVoice: 5/18/2016 20:37:04


AjaxAmsterdam
Level 6
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Dis is y wacos r best klan cuz only lord Adrian Waco haz da manger rites unliek all dese silly klans gibbin dem to evy1
Ban Semicedevine Permanently: UserVoice: 5/18/2016 20:40:26


kynte
Level 51
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I'm not twisting history. I've been around for a few hijacks, and this is what happened each time:

CORP gets hijacked by Semice as The Lone Wolf:

- Kazuki (leader/"owner" of CORP) goes inactive

- Angry Panda runs clan but can't manage day-to-day operations

- Stupidly gives Manager Rights to over a dozen people whom he absolutely shouldn't be trusting

- Again, there were at least a dozen incidents where he saw the warning (the one that says anyone with MR can take away MR from everyone else with MR, so be hella careful, etc. etc.) and decided to spread MR anyway because people were "recruiting," without even really checking who was being recruited

- Unsurprisingly, one of the people Panda gave MR to was someone who'd been in the clan for less than a week, had repeatedly asked for Manager Rights (red flag much?), and hijacked the clan

CORP gets hijacked again, by Achilles

- Kazuki (leader/"owner" of CORP) still barely active

- Has MR spread between himself, me (actually taking care of day-to-day operations), a couple of people, and Achilles- his IRL friend who even he'd describe as a controlling psychopath

- Achilles is inactive, does not even participate in clan management, and his having MR has no point whatsoever

- One day Achilles gets mad at Kazuki for something stupid and takes over the clan

- Uh oh. Okay, well, fuck this, I'll take care of it, get MR back from Achilles.

- Kazuki, not to be outdone, had somehow managed to give his goddamn password to Achilles. Clan gets hijacked again, this time through Kazuki's account.

- After the incident, Kazuki still insists that Manager Rights should remain with Achilles

The Lost Wolves get hijacked

- Zephyrum, taking over after hijacking the clan from Relm, gives me MR with the expectation that I would remove his MR and take over the clan (and no real objections to the situation)

Royal Entente gets hijacked

- Semice smuggles an alt into the Royal Entente

- Royal Entente leadership decides to give that alt Manager Rights, fully aware of the risks associated with it

- Shit happens

- Fizzer intervenes in the worst way possible, turning a temporary hijacking into a permanent collapse



Keeping your clan secure is not an open decision. It's about as much of a choice as Obama creating a website where anyone can control the American nuclear arsenal or monitor the activities of the CIA. You're knowingly transferring ownership every time you give someone else Manager Rights- there's even a warning, so you can't use the "I'm naive"/"I didn't know" defense at this point.

Clans are not hijacked by force. Unlike getting robbed in the street or getting hijacked on a plane, there's no way for someone to forcibly take over a clan (ignoring any vulnerabilities in WL's code, which have to my knowledge never been used this way) without you handing it to them.

If it's this easy for someone to hijack a clan, then yes I think it's your fault more than anyone else's. Literally all I have to do to keep The Lost Wolves secure is not transfer Manager Rights, especially when people ask me to give them MR. Literally all you have to do is:

a) Find the smallest possible # of people you need to run day-to-day operations that absolutely require Manager Rights, ideally 1 person

b) Give that person Manager Rights

c) Do not give anyone else Manager Rights

d) When your original Manager is unable to run the clan anymore, transfer them to someone you're comfortable giving absolute control over the clan to

How is this even hard? How is this something people consistently fail at? And why does this always happen in the same type of clan?

This literally can't happen without someone making some very stupid calls. Yes, Fizzer's system has its limitations. Yes, Semice is an asshole and an idiot for taking advantage of this, and it sucks that there's no viable way to control or punish him at this stage (without inordinately punishing others :/). But ultimately, there's only one set of people controlling the levers of power who can completely prevent this from happening- and that's the people with MR in your clan. It's not difficult in any way whatsoever to protect MR, and you're too much at fault here to play the victim card.

Edited 5/18/2016 20:43:28
Ban Semicedevine Permanently: UserVoice: 5/18/2016 20:41:38


Nex
Level 59
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Ironic that the self-proclaimed troll clans (maxTroll, Oppress MoD, Blitz, MSF, Poon Squad, Darklords, Heyheuhei family&lovers, and now Wacos) have had a 100% better success rate at preventing clan hijakings than the "diplomacy/roleplaying" clans. Y'all really should do better.
Ban Semicedevine Permanently: UserVoice: 5/18/2016 20:42:02


GeneralPE
Level 56
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Semice is a gud boi! He dindu nuffin
Ban Semicedevine Permanently: UserVoice: 5/18/2016 20:47:34


[WL] Colonel Harthacanute
Level 50
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Keeping your clan secure is not an open decision. It's about as much of a choice as Obama creating a website where anyone can control the American nuclear arsenal or monitor the activities of the CIA. You're knowingly transferring ownership every time you give someone else Manager Rights- there's even a warning, so you can't use the "I'm naive"/"I didn't know" defense at this point.


knyte, you are fully aware that moral boundaries and legality are not the same thing.
An act may be morally wrong, but officially illegal, or an act may be technically legal, but morally wrong.

Moral rights and wrongs are not determined by law, they are determined by the populace. And it is quite clear that the vast majority of people see that gaining someone's trust in order to destroy their pride for a laugh is not a laughing matter.

I dread to think where the boundaries would be otherwise.
Ban Semicedevine Permanently: UserVoice: 5/18/2016 20:47:35


kynte
Level 51
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It's not an either/or. Semice is a callous asshole. Fizzer's clan management system is broken.

But the majority of the fault here lies with Colonel, Kazuki, Panda, and all the other people who made the ultimate call. And until we acknowledge that, until we take action, this is going to keep happening.

You don't blame the LEGO company when someone ignores the warning labels and lets their infant play with small LEGOs and choke to death. Yes, there's a flaw in LEGOs and it sucks that you can choke to death if you swallow them. Yes, it's easy to trust LEGOs because of how friendly there are. But you're the one who decided to invite the vampire into his home.

you are fully aware that moral boundaries and legality are not the same thing.


It's not a question of moral boundaries or legality. Legality's not even what I'm appealing to.

I'm pointing out that the moral/legal/etc. responsibility here lies with the party that had the most power to prevent this action- and that's you/Recoil/whoever else had MR, Colonel.

If I had decided to give in to your request and put you in charge of the entire strategic side of The Lost Wolves, I'd be at much more fault than you for destroying the clan's hopes of being remotely competitive. Hell, when I accepted your request to join The Lost Wolves, I also took responsibility for any damage that could result to TLW as a consequence of your questionable history and behavior (fortunately, that didn't occur). By keeping Semice in TLW, in charge of TLW's strategic side, and on our CL8 roster, I'm also taking responsibility for the consequences of that calculated decision and acknowledging that I can't blame all the consequences away on less-than-ideal circumstances.

That's how leadership works- when you make a decision, you also take responsibility for the consequences instead of deciding to push them onto someone else.

That's not intrinsically a question of morality or legality- it's how you attribute responsibility.

Edited 5/18/2016 20:53:54
Ban Semicedevine Permanently: UserVoice: 5/18/2016 20:53:14


[WL] Colonel Harthacanute
Level 50
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Just so that nobody is being deceived by knyte's cruel words here, let me share a quote from Semice's "undercover alt":

"I am very grateful to you, my King, for granting me manager rights. It will be a great help in working with Kira to make sure that the clan is working orderly"


Edited 5/18/2016 20:57:23
Ban Semicedevine Permanently: UserVoice: 5/18/2016 20:57:07


[WL] Colonel Harthacanute
Level 50
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If I had decided to give in to your request and put you in charge of the entire strategic side of The Lost Wolves, I'd be at much more fault than you for destroying the clan's hopes of being remotely competitive. Hell, when I accepted your request to join The Lost Wolves, I also took responsibility for any damage that could result to TLW as a consequence of your questionable history and behavior (fortunately, that didn't occur). That's how leadership works- when you make a decision, you also take responsibility for the consequences instead of deciding to push them onto someone else.


The vast majority of people on this game would agree with me that it is not irresponsible to entrust someone who builds your trust for four months, and is then given a mandate by the clan members to run things in a certain capacity, as a manager of your clan. And still the fault for this is not to be deferred to others.

Anyhow, I don't want to get into a debate here. God bless.
Ban Semicedevine Permanently: UserVoice: 5/18/2016 20:58:48


Platinum
Level 58
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This is for all the people who have been affected by Semicedevine's behaviour.
For The Lost Wolves, The Royal Falcons, Bakkah Mekkah, La Grande Armee, CORP, and Royal Entente.

https://warlight.uservoice.com/forums/77051-warlight-features/suggestions/13892511-ban-semicedevine-permanently


That is as equally childish and pathetic as Semice hacking RE..
Ban Semicedevine Permanently: UserVoice: 5/18/2016 20:59:52


kynte
Level 51
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^^^ No duh. No one's contesting that Semice wanted these Manager Rights or actively deceived you to obtain them. No one's contesting that these actions are abusive, reprehensible, and ultimately harmful to the Warlight community.

But it's your responsibility as a leader to either make better calls than falling for such effortless deception or acknowledge that you ultimately held the levers of power and could've very, very easily prevented this.


Again, it's like vampires. You have the choice as to whether or not let them into your own home. And as the leader of the Royal Entente, making easy security decisions like that is very much within the realm of your responsibility.

vast majority of people on this game


And that's exactly the problem. You guys are making it all too easy to hijack clans and essentially giving Semice your informed consent to take over the clan.

Like I said, it takes literally no effort to prevent these hijackings. If you want to bet that this sort of outcome is just natural, I'm down- I can easily prevent a hijack in The Lost Wolves for literally the entire remainder of Warlight's lifespan. I don't even have to actively think about it. Plat right above me can keep {101st} hijack-free for the same timeframe. Even Darklordio can secure DARKLORDS- it's already survived many hijacking attempts, because every single one of them ultimately needs your consent to succeed.

"But he had a silver tongue!"

It's like living in a world where you need to consent to theft or murder in order for them to happen, and then still playing the victim card after you knowingly decided to get shot in the face. It'd be a freaking utopia, honestly, if crime IRL were as easy to prevent as a hijacking on Warlight. And yet I suspect you'd still get screwed.

Just take some responsibility for once.

Edited 5/18/2016 21:03:56
Ban Semicedevine Permanently: UserVoice: 5/18/2016 21:10:58


[WL] Colonel Harthacanute
Level 50
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I accept that it was a mistake to give the alt of Semicedevine MR. However, you are trying to pass the situation off as if I knew that he would inevitably take over.

He was popular within the clan, and I wanted someone to organise stuff such as RPCL whilst I was busy with some Education stuff in one month's time.

My point it that it could have happened to anybody, but I was targeted probably due to the fact that he resented that RE was rising to the top, even beating expectations in RPCL and he had, on two occasions prior, made statements which suggest that he had problems with us.

I was the target. I was exploited.

Blaming me for Semice's actions is the same as blaming a woman for rape because she called a plumber to fix he washing-machine who happened to be a rapist.
Ban Semicedevine Permanently: UserVoice: 5/18/2016 21:15:10


knyte 
Level 58
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However, you are trying to pass the situation off as if I knew that he would inevitably take over.


You were at the very least aware of the risks and had plenty of information available to understand why spreading MR is a bad decision. Like you've pointed out, this was far from the first time a hijack's happened.

My point it that it could have happened to anybody


No it couldn't have. The attitude that you didn't ultimately make the call that led to the collapse of RE + that it's someone else's responsibility to fix/adapt to the problem is exactly why we're seeing these hijacks so often when- as the vast majority of clans demonstrate- they're not difficult at all to prevent.

Blaming me for Semice's actions is the same as blaming a woman for rape because she called a plumber to fix he washing-machine who happened to be a rapist.


I knew someone would eventually throw this at me.

The difference between you and a victim is that rape doesn't need the victim's consent to happen. On the other hand, you read a warning, had seen the consequences play out countless times before, and still chose to grant Semice the power to take over RE. It's like sending your bank details to a Nigerian scammer after reading a bunch of warnings telling you exactly why that's a bad idea.

You don't move on from problems like that by just trying to get the Nigerian scammers banned, even if you succeed in banning the largest ones. The biggest thing holding us back right now is your failure to acknowledge your own fault and try to fix it.

Edited 5/18/2016 21:18:50
Ban Semicedevine Permanently: UserVoice: 5/18/2016 21:16:35


ℳℛᐤƬrαńɋℰ✕
Level 55
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The system does not need improving, one just needs to learn how the system works. To me it seems pretty fool-proof, but there are always gullible and easily deceived persons. None to blame than yourself. I think it is pretty clearly stated what "Transfer manager rights" mean. Nothing against the rules! Read TOS. All you can do is learn from this.

No, you are wrong, it could not happen to anybody! Stop flaming, uservoice´ing. Direct this to Fizzer, but probably you get a negative answer! And watch your words - few clicks away from report!

Edited 5/18/2016 21:16:56
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