" Correction: The stated goal of Al-Qaeda has always been to drive the US out of the Middle East.

This has been known to everyone for quite sometime, except blokes like you choose to ignore it and cry over your non-existent freedoms being attacked by non-existent threats. If you had ever paid attention to history, you would know the biggest threat to freedom is the government at war. "


^ This is not stupid or ignorant. This is dangerous. Al-Qaeda is a militant extremist Islamic terrorist group whose stated plan to wipe America off the map along with Israel. That is not resistance, that is not fighting for freedom. That's terrorism. Smedly, you have once again shown the extremist side of yourself. " This is best known to everyone " if it is, I wonder why your the only person I have ever heard express that idea, and I have worked in political groups my entire life.


If you knew anything about history, you would know the most dangerous threat to freedom is religion and the myth of " Government can be trusted with your rights ". Terrorists are not noble freedom fighters. They are terrorists, who take the ideas of a philosophy or religion to the extreme in order to fulfill a certain wanting in their mind, usually affiliated with loneliness or depression or just plain enthusiasm for their group. How on gods earth you actually believe this is beyond me. Al-Qaeda has sponsored or attacked nations who were never involved in the middle east. They don't have logical reasoning, they have religious reasoning. This is not politics, this is not for freedom, this is the fact they think if they blow themselves up, they will have 70 virgins to fuck. Look, I highly doubt you have ever read the Quran or studied the religious issues of the middle east but if you have, you know for a fact that the majority of educated professors and experts will tell you that Al-Qaeda, ISIS, Boko-Harom, and many others are not affected by promises of freedom or wealth. If they had been, this war on terrorism never would have existed in the first place. This is a religious question of fulfilling what they think the Quran tells them to do. That's why blockheads like you get this messed up. Because you don't know a rats ass about religion and what the bible and Quran actually say. Your content with just ranting based on what one teacher said or what you read on a blog somewhere. That's how these Bush did 9/11, The masons rule the world etc. rumors started. A few people binding the truth to what they want it to say and then broadcasting it to world in extreme arrogance acting like its the gospel and anyone who disagrees with it is stupid.

Edited 5/22/2016 19:21:58

This is why its hard to debate you. Because your so dog minded its almost stero-typical. You don't care about thinking about what the other person says. I always consider an argument carefully, always. I might have a bias sometimes but I do my best to give it a fair chance.

" Ignorance is the father of Arrogance " - Unknown

Edited 5/22/2016 19:30:13

Omg. This is not a debate. This is an argument.

Ideology and Goals. The principal stated aims of al-Qaeda are to drive Americans and American influence out of all Muslim nations, especially Saudi Arabia; destroy Israel; and topple pro-Western dictatorships around the Middle East.

This has been stated multiple times, your ignorance of the subject is awful.

Terrorists are not noble freedom fighters. They are terrorists, who take the ideas of a philosophy or religion to the extreme in order to fulfill a certain wanting in their mind, usually affiliated with loneliness or depression or just plain enthusiasm for their group

Before you say that I stated Al-Qaeda is a group of freedom fighters , actually read what I say. I said the government is anti-freedom, both economic and social. This has been proven time and time again. More importantly, when the government is at war, social freedoms diminish.

You can't get this through your head. THE US IS ANTI FREEDOM. The US is not fighting for freedom, they aren't a stabilizing force in the Middle East, and they're the reason Islamic extremism has gotten so big. You seem to think bombing entire countries will solve this problem , when it hasn't solved it in Afghanistan, and it made a problem in Iraq, Libya and Syria. You seem to think bombing Mashriq to nothing will win this war and finish this conflict, without escalating it further. You seem to think that despite Al-Qaeda's original goal and the reason folk support it is to destroy America, when it's been stated over and over again by Al-Qaeda that their goal is to get America out of the Middle East. You seem to think Al-Qaeda will invade America and the west and destroy our freedoms, when it's obvious the governments of the west are the ones who not only have the power to destroy the freedoms folk have, but the incentive to destroy the freedoms folk have. You're another stereotypical conservative who can't get his mind around anything except blowing folk up and defending non-existent freedoms. Stop calling yourself a libertarian, too, you're not. You've shown complete stupidity when it comes to anything with foreign policy. You seem to think that Islamic Extremism popped out of nowhere in 2001 and it wanted to conquer the west from the beginning. Folk like you are so extremely arrogant and ignorant of this and you show it, with a refusal to think of the US as anything else than another government that wants more power, or the motives of a terrorist group when it's clearly stated.

Edited 5/22/2016 20:20:52

The second I saw " Your a retard " I stopped reading because your arrogance override your mouth at that point.


I never ever said the U.S. still fought for freedom ( I swear to god, your assumptions would murder you in an actual debate ) I simply said your diagnoses of Al-Qaeda sounded like it came from the type person you are. A conspiracy theorist who believes what he wants too and doesn't even consider anyone else.



For God's sake. The White House. The UN. The majority of Americans. The defense department. They all say that Al-Qaeda us driven by religious motives. It's not ' Defense of the Motherland " soviet style, it's religion.

Edited 5/22/2016 20:26:20

Actually I lied, I needed a good laugh so I kept reading.

Oh and btw, I highly suggest you stop denying I'm a libertarian. Anyone who says Bush was a Keynesian doesn't know much about philosophical or political alignment lol.

Edited 5/22/2016 20:29:22

Conservative, you assumed too, jackass.

Now let's see:

The White House has a incentive not to tell the truth about Al-Qaeda
The UN is a powerless organization that is held by the US and US allies
The Defense Department has a incentive not to tell the truth about Al-Qaeda
And the majority of Americans are mostly ignorant on the subject (like you)

I've never seen you praising the free market, or actual non-interventionism, I've seen much more of the opposite though. And Bush is Keynesian, denying this is denying all common sense.

Of my gosh your arrogance is so utterly complete. I actually saw an episode of Parks and Rec that fits this situation perfectly.


Apparently, your version of common sense is not at all common. Where the hell did I assume anyway? I stated fact. The offical positions of those departments are aligned with what I said. Oh god, not the Keynesian thing again. Please, I was only joking, please dont bring that up, ignorance that high actually gives me a migraine ( I am dead serous lol ).


Ok now you are lying> I never supported the Patriot act, The Gulf war, the Libyan intervention and I have said so within this damn conversation while directly talking to you.


Do you even understand libertarianism? It is free market. I am a libertarian = Supporting the free market.


* WARNING: After this, I aint explaining anything else to you so make sure to bring up Wikipedia

Edited 5/22/2016 21:19:45

I feel like Obama did a few good things. I'd say like 2/3rds of his actions were OK to pretty awful.

Honestly, I wonder how past presidents would have handled our modern issues.

I can see Andrew Jackson dueling Vladimir Putin after they tried negotiations..

Lol Jackson Vs. Putin

Conservative, just shut up. You've lost on every point, refuse to see the consequences of the actions you support and deny facts.

You refuse to recognize that war grows state power, but still try and say that you do not support a expansion of state power.

You refuse to accept that Al-Qaeda's stated goal has always been to get the US to leave the Middle East.

You refuse to accept that the US is economically leftist, even though there is minimum wage, government sponsored unions, and tens of thousands of regulations. What do you think the Fed is? It's a leftist government institution that controls the currency (which is Fiat), and controls the interest rates (and was responsible for the Great Depression's length and the most recent recession.)

You even refuse to acknowledge that supporting wars makes you partially guilty in the deaths in those wars.

Some deity help us if folk like you get power, we'll be nuclear ash by the end of the century if you and folk like Japan get power.

Atheism can't be banned because atheism isn't a religion...

civil rights

I reckon I could find 1,000,000 people willing to die for the rights of everyone else. You're saying the American Revolution for example, was not worth it?

Edited 5/22/2016 22:35:40

The American Revolution was a failure. Come on, a 4% tax on a product is nothing compared to what they do now.

Edited 5/22/2016 23:03:19

France did the American Revolution.

lol that's right, let it all out. Its hard to be called out on lies, believe me, I have done it enough to know.


" You refuse to recognize that war grows state power, but still try and say that you do not support a expansion of state power.

You refuse to accept that Al-Qaeda's stated goal has always been to get the US to leave the Middle East. "


^ sounds to me like an arrogant prick who is mad because he finally met someone who spit his ignorance back at his face. Give me proof that's there stated goal. War does not expand governmental power. People fighting the wars do. war itself has nothing to do with it. People just use it as an excuse to do what they want.



* Note * notice how he is not actually answering my attacks? he just comes back with a personal insult and arrogance and new attacks of his own ( " I am smarter then you, the majority of Americans are stupid because they aren't accepting my gospel word for word " blah blah blah etc. you get the point right? ) Classic example of someone who cant answer, does not know how, or does not want to prolong a conversation he thinks hes losing.


" Conservative, just shut up. You've lost on every point, refuse to see the consequences of the actions you support and deny facts. "


^ That is called a verbal spiral and its every debaters worst nightmare. Study the text, notice how he did not even directly mention our original subject in his first sentence? its because he is at the point of desperation. He is trying to reassert to people who watched this debate that ' Hey Hey Look at me! I won I won! " is what. This is usual with people who feel like their losing the argument or not doing good enough. Many presidential debates actually had this happen ( I suggest listening to the Nixon Vs. Kennedy debates ).



" You refuse to accept "

^ This is another one He says countless times. This actually partly proves extreme arrogance and closed mindednesss. His wording highly suggestions he does not consider anyone elses position and that everything he says is fact. This is also commonly found with people who hold relatively unaccepted ideas or at least questionable. The mind is reassuring itself that " Yes, everything I am saying is true, it , it must be. Yeah everyone else is wrong ". For example, you never hear anyone say " It is pure fact that an egg can be broken !! you must accept it!! ". Why? Because people don't feel like they have to reassure others or themselves. But when people talk about evolution, religion, or any other questionable subjects, they feel the need to constantly act like it is true and nothing else is true. Thus, by his own wording I can plainly see he doesn't even think that most people accept his views as he claimed earlier.


( His response to these comments will most likely be mockery. Unless he changes his comments because I predicted his original disposition....)

Edited 5/22/2016 23:11:40

Conservative, if you're good at arguing, then you should be able to actually beat my points with facts and evidence, not just say they're invalid because of the way they're framed.

I said Al-Qaeda's goal is to get the US out of the Middle East, provided evidence, and you said they aren't, and didn't provide evidence.

I said the US is economically leftist, you said it wasn't, so I provided evidence for why it was, and you didn't provide evidence for why it isn't.

And don't claim that I'm bad for using personal attacks when you also used personal attacks, claiming I'm arrogant and ignorant when you can't beat my arguments.

Despite expansion during Woodrow Wilson’s first term as president, the federal government on the eve of World War I remained small. In 1914, federal spending totaled less than 2 percent of GNP. The top rate of the recently enacted federal individual-income tax was 7 percent, on income over $500,000, and 99 percent of the population owed no income tax. The 402,000 federal civilian employees, most of whom worked for the Post Office, constituted about 1 percent of the labor force. The armed forces comprised fewer than 166,000 men on active duty. Although the federal government meddled in a few areas of economic life, prescribing railroad rates and bringing antitrust suits against a handful of unlucky firms, it was for most citizens remote and unimportant.

With U.S. entry into the Great War, the federal government expanded enormously in size, scope, and power. It virtually nationalized the ocean shipping industry. It did nationalize the railroad, telephone, domestic telegraph, and international telegraphic cable industries. It became deeply engaged in manipulating labor-management relations, securities sales, agricultural production and marketing, the distribution of coal and oil, international commerce, and markets for raw materials and manufactured products. Its Liberty Bond drives dominated the financial capital markets. It turned the newly created Federal Reserve System into a powerful engine of monetary inflation to help satisfy the government’s voracious appetite for money and credit. In view of the more than 5,000 mobilization agencies of various sorts—boards, committees, corporations, administrations—contemporaries who described the 1918 government as “war socialism” were well justified.[2]

During the war the government built up the armed forces to a strength of four million officers and men, drawn from a prewar labor force of 40 million persons. Of those added to the armed forces after the U.S. declaration of war, more than 2.8 million, or 72 percent, were drafted.[3] Men alone, however, did not make an army. They required barracks and training facilities, transportation, food, clothing, and health care. They had to be equipped with modern arms and great stocks of ammunition.

As the mobilization began, the requisite resources remained in the possession of private citizens. Although manpower could be obtained by conscription, public opinion would not tolerate the outright confiscation of all the property required to turn the men into a well-equipped fighting force. Still, ordinary market mechanisms threatened to operate too slowly and at too great an expense to facilitate the government’s plans. The Wilson administration therefore resorted to the vast array of interventions mentioned earlier. All may be seen as devices to hasten the delivery of the requisite resources and to diminish the fiscal burden of equipping the huge conscript army for effective service in France.

Notwithstanding those contrivances to keep the Treasury’s expenses down, taxes still had to be increased enormously—federal revenues rose by nearly 400 percent between fiscal 1917 and fiscal 1919—and even greater amounts had to be borrowed. The national debt swelled from $1.2 billion in 1916 to $25.5 billion in 1919.

To ensure that the conscription-based mobilization could proceed without obstruction, critics had to be silenced. The Espionage Act of June 15, 1917, penalized those convicted of willfully obstructing the enlistment services by fines up to $10,000 and imprisonment as long as 20 years. An amendment, the Sedition Act of May 16, 1918, went much further, imposing the same severe criminal penalties on all forms of expression in any way critical of the government, its symbols, or its mobilization of resources for the war. Those suppressions of free speech, subsequently upheld by the Supreme Court, established dangerous precedents that derogated from the rights previously enjoyed by citizens under the First Amendment.

The government further subverted the Bill of Rights by censoring all printed materials, peremptorily deporting hundreds of aliens without due process of law, and conducting—and encouraging state and local governments and vigilante groups to conduct—warrantless searches and seizures, blanket arrests of suspected draft evaders, and other outrages too numerous to catalog here. In California the police arrested Upton Sinclair for reading the Bill of Rights at a rally. In New Jersey the police arrested Roger Baldwin for publicly reading the Constitution.[4]

The government also employed a massive propaganda machine to whip up what can only be described as public hysteria. The result was countless incidents of intimidation, physical abuse, and even lynching of persons suspected of disloyalty or insufficient enthusiasm for the war. People of German ancestry suffered disproportionately.[5]

When the war ended, the government abandoned most, but not all, of its wartime control measures. The draft itself ended when the armistice took effect on November 11, 1918. By the end of 1920 the bulk of the economic regulatory apparatus had been scrapped, including the Food Administration, the Fuel Administration, the Railroad Administration, the War Industries Board, and the War Labor Board. Some emergency powers migrated into regular government departments such as State, Labor, and Treasury and continued in force. The Espionage Act and the Trading with the Enemy Act remained on the statute books. Congressional enactments in 1920 preserved much of the federal government’s wartime involvement in the railroad and ocean shipping industries. The War Finance Corporation shifted missions, subsidizing exporters and farmers until the mid-1920s. Wartime prohibition of alcoholic beverages, a purported conservation measure, transmogrified into the ill-fated Eighteenth Amendment.

Most important, the dominant contemporary interpretation of the war mobilization, including the belief that federal economic controls had been instrumental in achieving the victory, persisted, especially among the elites who had played leading roles in the wartime economic management. It was hardly surprising that 15 years later, in the depths of the Great Depression, the federal government employed the wartime measures as models for dealing with what Franklin D. Roosevelt called “a crisis in our national life comparable to war.”[6]

War has everything to do with the expansion of government power during wartime, and is a blank check for folk who want to expand government power.

I will provide evidence if you want ( I have not so far because I really hate searching the web for proof that wont change a persons mind ) But you not provided any proof so far either. You have not provided any proof, just saying things. I never said the US was economically leftist, please proof that. I used personal attacks when you started attacking my intelligence.

" Don't pull the splinter out of anothers eye if your own poses a log "


EDIT: What is the source of that text?

Edited 5/22/2016 23:18:19

The source was the Foundation for economic education. Also I'm the one saying the US is economically leftist.

I also have a speech from Osama Bin Laden on the subject of Al-Qaeda's goals here:

http://www.aljazeera.com/archive/2004/11/200849163336457223.html

Edited 5/22/2016 23:27:05

A few excerpts from his speech:

This is in addition to our having experience in using guerrilla warfare and the war of attrition to fight tyrannical superpowers, as we, alongside the mujahidin, bled Russia for 10 years, until it went bankrupt and was forced to withdraw in defeat.

So we are continuing this policy in bleeding America to the point of bankruptcy

No one except a dumb thief plays with the security of others and then makes himself believe he will be secure. Whereas thinking people, when disaster strikes, make it their priority to look for its causes, in order to prevent it happening again.