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Can Wasteland Style enter mainstream strat games?: 6/5/2016 16:50:22


(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 50
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I know that local deployment and negative bonuses are sometimes played by elite clans. May I ask whether Wasteland Style can also become the mainstream...I'm willing to accept a lighter version of it to make it more popular.

Characteristics of Wasteland style is insanely many heavy emergency blockade (2000%) and blockade (5000%) cards. Everything else is negotiable. Just not the number (practically infinite) and intensity (well it can be reduced a little bit but never to mainstream levels such as 351% blockade cards) of emergency blockade and blockade cards.

In particular I'm willing to throw away airlift cards and diplo cards if this helps broaden its market.

Edited 6/5/2016 16:51:21
Can Wasteland Style enter mainstream strat games?: 6/5/2016 17:36:14


j willy 47
Level 58
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I doubt it will ever be more than a niche, as from the games I played it isn't very strategic.
Can Wasteland Style enter mainstream strat games?: 6/5/2016 17:41:26


❤HankyPinky
Level 57
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Invite me to a game of it. Does it work with 1v1 and/or ffa type?
Can Wasteland Style enter mainstream strat games?: 6/5/2016 17:48:02

AlexRS
Level 57
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I'd be interested in giving this a try, sounds like it could be fun!
Can Wasteland Style enter mainstream strat games?: 6/5/2016 18:05:49


(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 50
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@Hanky It works as 1v1, 2v2, etc.. Usually not FFA.
I will invite you to a game. AlexRS as well.

Edited 6/5/2016 18:20:41
Can Wasteland Style enter mainstream strat games?: 6/5/2016 18:20:21


(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 50
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@j willy Are you talking about my 2v2 Congo four cities games? We are going to use more popular maps such as MME and BI. We will also modify most settings so that it looks familiar to a typical strat player.

The only difference is that every turn you receive one full 2000% emergency blockade card and one full 5000% blockade card. All other things will be as typical as possible.

60/70 cyclic order/no luck cyclic order
Basic armies 5. 3 starting positions with 4 armies each. Neutrals = 2 with 8 wastelands of size 10 (can be enlarged since we are playing Wasteland Style).
MME map
1/5 Order Priority Cards 1/6 Order Delay Cards 1/4 Reinforcement cards of size 5 1/1 emergency blockade cards (2000%) 1/1 blockade cards (5000%) you can at most hold 1000 cards.

Edited 6/5/2016 18:26:41
Can Wasteland Style enter mainstream strat games?: 6/5/2016 19:00:35


j willy 47
Level 58
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Yeah, I've only played on the congo map. It just seems to me that with these cards, strat games will dissolve into using normal blockade to easily protect your bonuses while using ermegency blockade to hurt your opponent. I'd be happy to play a few games on the newer maps and see if you can prove me wrong though ;)
Can Wasteland Style enter mainstream strat games?: 6/5/2016 19:14:42

daftpunk
Level 57
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Like this @ turn 32 Codania

https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=6963682

Edited 6/5/2016 19:15:21
Can Wasteland Style enter mainstream strat games?: 6/5/2016 19:24:58


Richard Sharpe 
Level 59
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Any setting that gives you one card per turn automatically can't be strategic. Part of the strategy is knowing when/how to use cards when you have a limited supply. Having them so easily earned completely devalues them.

Never mind that you don't just MAKE a template go mainstream. It just happens. This is like asking to make a video go viral. It just happens or it doesn't
Can Wasteland Style enter mainstream strat games?: 6/5/2016 19:32:48


GeneralPE
Level 56
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Use this map, it has a lot of chokepoints/good size: https://www.warlight.net/Map/16739-Millennium-Mediterranean

I have played good games on it with 1 abandon each turn
Can Wasteland Style enter mainstream strat games?: 6/5/2016 20:05:12


(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 50
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@Richard There is a reason why people get one emergency blockade and one blockade card per turn. The goal is to make it possible to have walls of high neutrals as opposed to only points of high neutrals. So in any Wasteland Style game the map is what is harmed the most..;) Both sides blockade anywhere they want hence you see high neutrals everywhere.

One key issue with traditional Wasteland Style game is that if both sides know the basics (such as Metzico & me vs M.Poireau & Onoma94) the game devolves into merely an expansion race + income competition. Due to airlift cards which are also very abundant in traditional Wasteland Style games and long diplo cards as well the team with good starting positions almost can not be adequately challenged. Almost nobody attacks small stacks with large armies which makes it very hard for the side with inferior income to tip the balance. On the other hand, the team with more income will just consolidate everything and gradually march forward, ruining more and more of opponents' bonuses. Here airlift and diplo cards are not present which can make the game move more.

Oh and stalling should be forbidden in Wasteland Style games or nobody knows when they will ever end. If you just refuse to surrender there is not a lot we can do against you other than to exclude you from the tournaments in the future while your current game can take months to end.

Edited 6/5/2016 20:07:45
Can Wasteland Style enter mainstream strat games?: 6/5/2016 20:09:56


(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 50
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@General PE With a lot of choke points Wasteland Style gets even longer. Unlike typical 351% blockade cards that rarely appears. several 2000% emergency blockade and 5000% blockade cards can separate the map like Berlin Wall in a very short time. Now with no access to the enemy (yes this happens in Wasteland Style) and the only thing you see are wastelands of 100+ size left by both sides. We manage to destroy pretty connected maps such as Congo easily..hence the number of cards have to be restricted when your map is used..:-)

Edited 6/5/2016 20:13:12
Can Wasteland Style enter mainstream strat games?: 6/5/2016 20:14:00


Richard Sharpe 
Level 59
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I have no idea why you addressed that monster to me since it didn't reference my point at all. If anything, it strengthened it since the lower income team effectively can't win. That makes it even LESS strategic than previously thought.
Can Wasteland Style enter mainstream strat games?: 6/5/2016 20:21:31


master of desaster 
Level 64
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Can Wasteland Style enter mainstream strat games?

Please don't take this as offense, but so far the only Player who seems to see some special strategy in this, is you Feline Juggernaut #3. For me, it's just a mess so i doubt it can enter Mainstream games
Can Wasteland Style enter mainstream strat games?: 6/5/2016 20:22:16


GeneralPE
Level 56
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@Feline Juggernaut
It has choke points, but it is big enough that you can get around them with some work. Mostly it is just the sea routes and ports
Can Wasteland Style enter mainstream strat games?: 6/5/2016 20:36:02


(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 50
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@master of disaster I do not take offense..:-) Well there indeed are some unusual strategies though. For example, attack enemy big stacks with bigger stacks sometimes work since it is relatively unlikely that your opponent can afford to emergency blockade them when there are no airlift cards. Blockading big stacks is very risky since in Wasteland Style people are generally hesitant to attack with big stacks. When there is no sizable attack you lose your big stack and probably some bonuses as well which is almost never recoverable since blockade rates are so high. Using big stacks bordering an enemy bonus to scare your enemy into emergency blockading his/her own bonus (which we used against Onoma94) works as well. Attacking a territory that borders multiple enemy territories can sometimes scaring your enemy into emergency blockading almost everywhere which depletes his/her valuable cards before a major offensive which makes the offensive easier. Attacking neutrals in a bonus makes the bonus almost impossible for your enemy to ever conquer since once you are in it is very hard to evict you without you leaving a huge wasteland.

Edited 6/5/2016 20:36:23
Can Wasteland Style enter mainstream strat games?: 6/5/2016 20:37:47


(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 50
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@GeneralPE With enough emergency blockade and blockade cards you can not even get around Big US map...
Can Wasteland Style enter mainstream strat games?: 6/5/2016 20:47:47


GeneralPE
Level 56
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^ Yeah really underrated for any type of gameplay, idk why.
Can Wasteland Style enter mainstream strat games?: 6/5/2016 23:38:58


(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 50
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Here is our 1v1 MME Wasteland Style template: https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?TemplateID=876970
Can Wasteland Style enter mainstream strat games?: 6/6/2016 17:05:46


(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 50
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May I ask what changes do we need to make so that elite players such as master of desaster will like it?
Can Wasteland Style enter mainstream strat games?: 6/6/2016 17:21:12


master of desaster 
Level 64
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I don't like the concept, cause it's to a big part pure prediction, if you abandon the right territory or if you attack at all.
I prefer templates where the player who plays better is more likely to win and not the player who predicted the other to attack the right territory the right turn wins easily.
Can Wasteland Style enter mainstream strat games?: 6/8/2016 15:53:47

M. Poireau
Level 53
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As someone who participated in a Wasteland Style tournament (and made it to the semi-finals; I believe it's still ongoing), I can weigh in on this.

I like a lot of things about Wasteland Style. The powerful Blockades allow the players to remake the map, by adding some interesting geography to it.

However, it has the limitations which you (Feline Juggernaut) and master of desaster have pointed out:

* The game relies heavily on guessing/double-guessing your opponent. This can be fun at first, but has limited range for developing more interesting strategies. With equally-skilled opponents familiar with the game, it can devolve into luck.

* The settings limit you to specific types of games (no FFAs, only very "open" maps, and probably only pretty small maps, as well).

* It relies on the losing team being able to understand they are losing and then voluntarily surrendering. Beginners may not be able to understand, and obstinate players may not wish to surrender. Get both in one team, and your game will never finish.

Put together, these features make the game limited strategically: you can learn all the strategies within a handful of games, and then your games will either be stalemates or go to whichever team got the better starting position or better luck in guessing their opponents.

I think it's a really fun experiment, and enjoyable for a while, but has limited strategic depth. It's closer to Tic-Tac-Toe than Chess, in other words: you reach maximum strategic understanding fairly quickly and then it's not so interesting to play anymore. Tic-Tac-Toe is no longer interesting once both players understand the game; Chess is something you can play for your whole life and keep learning things.
Can Wasteland Style enter mainstream strat games?: 6/8/2016 16:05:44


Wally Balls 
Level 58
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elite clans


What's that? Seems like an oxymoron.
Can Wasteland Style enter mainstream strat games?: 6/8/2016 16:27:47

M. Poireau
Level 53
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Feline, you should really try playing a Multiform Warlight game sometime. I think you will find that it has many of the features you like in Wasteland Style, but without the above drawbacks.

Multi-attack removes the simple ability to Blockade adjacent to your enemy, for example. Instead, you must plan ahead and use the geography of the map to try to develop defensible territory.

The part I think you will like is the ability to "Wasteland" large portions of the map, and then pick paths through those "wasted" areas to reach you opponents. It creates an interesting and shifting geography to the game. (However, I found that keeping Blockades small enough to enable players to dedicate resources to occasionally clearing those wastelands was key to keeping things interesting.)

I've experimented with different settings, and finally found that I preferred slightly rarer Blockade cards, but the more Blockade-heavy Multiform I played for a while was definitely lots of fun and very strategically rich. Here are some examples:

https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=7255597

https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=7544577 (This game was very dramatic, with each player dominating at different times. Unfortunately, it devolved when too many of the players dropped out, causing a pretty unexciting endgame. Still, it was very interesting for 200 turns! A long but intriguing game.)

https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=7828962

Edited 6/8/2016 16:33:35
Can Wasteland Style enter mainstream strat games?: 6/20/2016 17:37:33


(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 50
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M.Poireau, I will try after CL8.:-)

Wasteland Style works for me because almost nobody (well you, Smileyleg, Onoma etc are exceptions) other than my teammates actually understands even a little bit about how to properly play it. Hence people get constantly outsmarted by us. We usually document income of everybody each turn while those unfamiliar with the static template may have no idea when we will clash with them, nor are they sure about our income. The funny part is that with only a little bit of experience the game between your team and mine became such a nightmare that I worried a lot about it..even when we constantly maintained a 50+ income advantage.

I'm thinking about having some lighter and more elite clan-friendly form of Wasteland Style to be incorporated into regular strat games. Could you please help me? I'm willing to concede another point, namely strength and amount of emergency blockade and blockade cards. I'm willing to go by as low as 800% in emergency blockade cards and restrict it to 1/20-1/10 per turn so that you usually only get to use once per 10 turns or more, which allows normal big stack attacks to exist. I'm willing to reduce blockade percentage as well.

In the usual Wasteland Style we have to have a high base income either through base income or through starting city bonuses. I can imagine WS degenerate into peace when the base income is low..since when people can form a high wall between each other completely, scaling the wall itself costs so many armies that it can be inherently a huge disadvantage. Hence for example when you have an income advantage of 5 armies and the wall costs 50 armies to scale you will wait for at least 10 turns before actually scaling it. Then your opponent will emergency blockade or airlift into everywhere adjacent to that location hence your actual gain is just moving your "border" a little bit towards your opponent. If it actually borders some opponent-held bonus then it is a good idea if you get to redraw the wall on his/her bonus before peace happens again. If we are playing a cities game it actually can end since the team with larger income can not just dig through walls that bother regular bonuses. More importantly the team with larger income can dig towards your huge city bonuses as well. If you have no means to actually win a battle (that means to move the border back) they will finally reach your city bonuses and force you to abandon them as well which will result in a devastating income advantage. The game will be very long but it will finally end as something other than a stalemate. There will be one day when you do not get to keep even one territory through this procedure. Another issue is that the amount of emergency blockade, blockade, diplomacy and airlift cards is finite. If you are in disadvantage in such a war of attrition you can not easily replenish your depleted card reserves. I know that you can recycle emergency blockade cards but if One Army Must Stand Guard is on it costs a lot to recycle cards. There will be one day when you run out of cards and then your opponent will just roll in as long as they make sure that you can not capture even one territory.

In fact when we had beaten your latest attack and settled most border disputes in our favor the game is bound to end. I estimated that you guys have at most 3 or 5 emergency blockade cards left after reading history carefully. Without any means to replenish your card reserves Metzico will just roll in big stacks towards Lubumbashi which you guys probably can not contain using cards any more since we have destroyed almost all of your army reserves in the field through our careful three-way attack on the last outpost you guys hold in our zone. At the same time I will scale a wall where you really hate it and spoil around 20-30 armies worth of your bonuses. After liberating or forcing Onoma to blockade Lubumbashi and hopefully eliminating him or "jailing" him in some completely walled place with no access to the battlefield we will then drive towards Kinshasa with 160+ income advantage and with your card reserves severely depleted.

Edited 6/20/2016 18:57:42
Can Wasteland Style enter mainstream strat games?: 6/20/2016 18:03:26

M. Poireau
Level 53
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Tabby,

You got it! Those are the limitations/drawbacks of Wasteland Style.

I can see how it's fun when your opponents are foolish, but with two skilled teams it seems bound to degenerate into exactly what you described. You're correct than one team WILL eventually win (perhaps except for rare cases where their income is equal, which could be a true stalemate!); it just doesn't sound like much FUN.

Ryan Doherty used to host Scrabble games which were kind of like an extreme version of this: each player started with 5/turn income, and the neutrals had 100 armies each. While I like playing with Ryan, I didn't really want to play that game!

Someone else apparently agreed:

https://www.warlight.net/Forum/125965-boring-game

Notably, in Wasteland Style, with the ability to block off any avenues of approach, high base income (further encouraging blockades), and lots of Airlift cards, it basically simplifies to "whose income is higher", since both teams can force a battle in one location, with all their armies present.

Send me a note when you'd like to try one of my templates, and then we can chat afterwards!
Can Wasteland Style enter mainstream strat games?: 6/20/2016 18:12:02


(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 50
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I agree. Well, Scrabble Wasteland Style would be a complete nightmare..when someone could simply have one 10000-army wall to separate two sides which takes 50-170 turns to take down. Then the player with income advantage will find an even higher wall behind that 10000-army wall with no way around it...like a 100000-army wall formed by one dude blockading with 2000 armies which they have collected over 20 turns (or worse). Now a game can last several years if one dedicated blockader just decides to take turns every 3 turns and blockade just before you roll in. He/she is likely to be able to win by booting or force a VTE despite income disadvantage.

The issue is...
If one side has 200 armies while the other has 100 armies for example, once the 100-army dude blockades with 5 turns' income (500) he makes a blockade of height 25000 which takes more than 200 turns for the side with higher income to take down. Meanwhile the side with lower income will just calmly stack more of their armies on the map and one turn before the former wall gets broken they will blockade again with everything they have. Let's assume they blockade with 20000 armies which result in a 1 million-army wall which takes more than 7500 turns for that side with 200-army income to take down...But the 100-army side still has even more blockade cards! Now a 750,000-army stack is there to be blockaded which results in a (sigh) 37.5 million-army wall which takes....312,500 turns to break.

Will Warlight still be hosted at this site when this game ends if every turn takes 3 days? Well, it seems that it takes more than 1 year to break the first blockade, more than 30 years to break the second blockade and 1500+ years to break the third blockade. If you are willing to let your greatgreatgreatgreatgrandchildren finish the game, so be it. Well if there are enough blockade cards the game will never finish.

Edited 6/20/2016 18:27:54
Can Wasteland Style enter mainstream strat games?: 6/20/2016 18:31:16


Richard Sharpe 
Level 59
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So in other words, you want a unique style of play to become mainstream but you only like said style of play because it is so unique and you are one of the few who understand it and take advantage of that fact.

Sounds pretty lame to me. Resorting to atypical settings to make a game a simple victory due to ignorance. Never mind the fact that if it did go mainstream, you'd quickly revert back to average since your one advantage (experience with the atypical template) would be gone.
Can Wasteland Style enter mainstream strat games?: 6/20/2016 18:42:54


(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 50
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Wasteland Style does inherently depend on good will. If the lost side properly practices mass blockading, that means to blockade everywhere with equal height which should be as high as possible and do not think about ever winning the game by means other than booting..especially on huge maps.

In Sub-Saharan Africa we managed to imprison Warlord Juggernaut completely in some area in Southern Africa with 33-army income left and had advantage over the other team. However if they insisted on playing the game could have been a huge nightmare. FitnessFreak was approaching Ethiopia which is the last significant superbonus smiley had after we broke Sudan but a wall along the border to protect Ethiopia could be constructed. Yu-Ren absolutely blockaded me out completely so that there is nothing I could do to attack him (he just blockaded every single territory from which I can advance on his East Zambian homeland and I had no way to mitigate this problem except for breaking diplo with his less-blockadish teammate to get around his Zambian Wall). Russian Empire was blockadish and formed his own Congo Wall and diploed us. Considering all these factors this game may as well take several more months to end had they not quit. In fact we could not defeat even Warlord who was surrounded by three of us easily since he could just form wall after wall before his territory count reduces to 0, recycle cards and regularly gave us 4-turn diplos to further prolong the game.

Edited 6/20/2016 19:02:40
Can Wasteland Style enter mainstream strat games?: 6/20/2016 18:44:56


(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 50
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Richard, I no longer need WS as a means to increase my levels any more (farming points) I did not play diplos or lotteries to gain levels, instead I played WS in tournies which did improve my real strat skills as well. For example if you can first try to defeat some people on WS it also helps you defeat them later on regular templates.

Now I'm more interested in popularizing some of its variants. No need to farm for points any more since I already have enough of them.

Edited 6/20/2016 18:48:08
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