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Clan League 8 Division B Official Thread: 10/17/2016 03:17:18


Bonsai 
Level 63
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Yeah, those things are true (regarding CL play). After that, it's... a long story, and most of the 101st commenting here weren't around for it.
Clan League 8 Division B Official Thread: 10/17/2016 03:39:52


AWESOMEGUY 
Level 63
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"At the time I was in 101st, 101st felt almost totally dissociated from Lynx with almost 0 help coming from them."

Training games with Benoit:
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https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=11482914
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Training games with TeamGuns:
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https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=11094487
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Training games with MarkusBM:
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https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=11093671
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Training games with Tac(ky)tical:
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https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=10715631

Training games with Styxie:
https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=10376593
https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=10715631
https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=11560116
https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=11551624
https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=11240026
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https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=11029038
https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=11028931
https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=11028943
https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=10890173
https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=10840239
https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=10832687
https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=10679347
https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=10439562
https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=10439508
https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=10393434
https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=10393387

Training games with Dogberry:
https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=11388294

Training games with Apollo:
https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=11392090

Training games with Platinum:
https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=10129795
https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=10603793
https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=10631270
https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=10670912
https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=10675182
https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=10715631
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https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=10881944
https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=10882165
https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=10882406
https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=11135942
https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=11147049
https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=11317154
https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=11317396
https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=11317562
https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=11391351
https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=11714085
https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=11362395


I'll be the first to admit Lynx tutoring could have been much better, but saying that one received almost zero help from Lynx during the Outlaw's stay in 101st is a statement worth reconsidering. I'm not going to bother with the other crap on this thread.
Clan League 8 Division B Official Thread: 10/17/2016 03:48:58


Zephyrum
Level 60
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-- "101st is not called Lynx II, is not managed by the same person, it has its own ambition to get good players and perform and so on so it has its own independence."

This is basically not true. This is exactly what we wanted and why, as a group, we had to leave.


So you're saying 101st was essentially LynxB before the outlaws founders jumped ship? But didn't you also say before that Lynx wasn't getting involved/helping 101st? Then how can a clan operating supposedly independently be a B-team?

This simply does not follow. You all claim the same thing - little Lynx involvement, but were still involved enough to make 101st "LynxB".
Clan League 8 Division B Official Thread: 10/17/2016 03:52:03


Dogberry
Level 57
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Since my name was thrown into that last post (EDIT: AG's, not Zeph's), I'll respond.

That game you listed with me was part of a streamed RT tournament. Training was not the main mission. I also thought that was before you joined Lynx, though I could be mistaken on that point.

The disconnection was real. As a member of their training clan, I would have loved to have felt part of a larger Lynx community. This is something I wanted but was missing.

The best thing to come from the Outlaw/101st schism is that it prompted Lynx to reconnect with the 101st. I would have loved to have felt even a fraction of the support the 101st now gets from Lynx.

Edited 10/17/2016 04:01:51
Clan League 8 Division B Official Thread: 10/17/2016 04:06:44


Benoît
Level 63
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@AG

Ok AG, I had a bit of common games with Lynx but other than you and ZBD, I did not received much help from any Lynx when I was there or even talked much with any guys there...The chat was almost ZBD and AG with some 101st guys...That is why I said ex-101st received ALMOST 0 help from Lynx and that the present situation in Lynx seems to be better now.

In total honesty, if all Lynx would have been so involved in 101st community like you and ZBD (before the scandal), maybe things could have worked out better between ex-101st and Lynx. No wonder people in Outlaws still like you a lot and are happy to see you!

Edited 10/17/2016 04:10:48
Clan League 8 Division B Official Thread: 10/17/2016 04:44:59


TheRiverStyxie 
Level 61
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@ Forgotten Knight. I have stayed off the forum thus far not because we "got what we wanted" but because this ridiculous flamefest is not something I nor the Outlaws members feel is procuctive to anyone. I do however wish to comment on one thing and one thing only.

One of the leaders of Outlaws had a frank (and civil) dialogue with me last night and in that talk, they admitted that yes, Outlaws had been in contact with the panel about this decision. As a matter of fact, they had on and off contact for weeks. They said the dialogue started when the discussion of replacement players first came up (almost two months ago).


To clarify, Platinum contacted the clan league panel due to the rule that replacement games/retired players must be declared. That is what he did. This was known to you at the time because we relayed the information that the panel had stated that the replacement games were given on condition that both 101st and Outlaws agreed on replacement players. 101st and Outlaws then agreed between us on one 101st player (Kantos who had moved from lynx to 101st and Bonsai from Outlaws.).

At the same time, Platinum asked the panel what would happen regarding the clan league spot and the panel said that they would discuss the situation and make a decision which would be announced at a later date. This again was relayed directly to you via Platinum.

There were no futher talks/discussions until Platinum asked a couple of weeks ago if a decision had been arrived at to which he was told the panel were still in discussion about it and had been discussing it for a couple of months already. No further information was given to us.

Don't make out there were sneaky talks when there wasn't, you were fully aware of all the information that had been relayed to us. The clan league panel didn't approach us, Plat approached them to declare Jinxed retired and to ask what would happen with the clan league spot. You were fully able to do the same thing and approach the clan league panel yourselves.

The fact that you have come out here in public and trying to twist words is disgusting, after I specifically asked you to discuss any concerns you have with me privately. You are stating that I admitted that we spoke to the clan league panel like it was a taboo thing when you were fully aware a couple of months ago that the clan league panel had decided that both 101st and outlaws had to agree on 2 replacement players. Else how would both clans have agreed on kantos if you didn't know we had spoken to the panel about it?!?


But here's the important question that raises: Why was the 101st clan kept in the dark throughout this whole process?


You had exactly the same opportunities as us to contact the panel yourselves. The fact that we did and you did not is your responsibility. There have been no "secret talks". Every step we have taken in this process has been fully disclosed to yourselves and the clan league panel.

There are so many misconceptions being thrown around here simply because people want some drama, it's ridiculous. For those people who seem to be making their own reasons up about the reasons why we "left" 101st and formed outlaws, have you ever thought to ask us instead of coming to your own conclusions? Just because we decided to not make a huge public deal over the split from 101st and post it all over the forums at the time, people seem to think it's ok to just make up a load of crap themselves. Thank you to those who did come to us and ask the reasons for the split which we happily gave privately.

This is the only time I will be posting on any of this. Platinum will be fully addressing everyone's points when he gets back. If anyone would like to contact me privately in the meantime regarding any of this, I will be happy to talk to you and answer any questions. This to me is the correct way of addressing these kind of issues, instead of this ridiculous flamefest and drama all over the forums which only serves to be counterproductive to all.
Clan League 8 Division B Official Thread: 10/17/2016 05:21:34


KKND
Level 60
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DivB had no drama, and now we got it :(

Can we gather DivA and DivB leaders and talk in some chat maybe?

this thread is not productive at all, you just through you bad feelings to each other

p.s. sorry for my bad english, it's my 3/4 language
Clan League 8 Division B Official Thread: 10/17/2016 05:27:39


Deadman 
Level 64
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Given that most people have had their say, I thought I would respond.

@ForgottenKnight
MOTD told me as recently as three days ago when things all started flying to pieces that there had been no talks between members of the panel and members of the Outlaws clan during the decision period.
One of the leaders of Outlaws had a frank (and civil) dialogue with me last night and in that talk, they admitted that yes, Outlaws had been in contact with the panel about this decision. As a matter of fact, they had on and off contact for weeks. They said the dialogue started when the discussion of replacement players first came up (almost two months ago).
why is MOTD denying that any talks with Outlaws happened when clearly they did and from the perspective of Outlaws, they didn't feel that they were supposed to kept secret. Did MOTD just forget weeks worth of dialogue? An earlier commenter spent the time to catalog out MOTD's conflict of interest in favoring the Outlaws, so I'm not going to rehash that, but brings me back to my point.
I dont know what conversation you had. But if anyone says that I've talked to an Outlaw about this decision, they are lying. Like I've already stated to you, we were asked about it and all we have told them is that a decision will be made in due course. Stop painting me as a dishonest person to whip up public support. You can do better than that mate.

For what it's worth, I was the only person who had an intial viewpoint which was pro 101st, but was convinced otherwise and I fully stand by our decision.




In our minds, the clan league is one of the most competitive arenas on Warlight. We hope that once people calm down, they reconsider their threat to boycott this competition. This issue is complex and we have discussed it at length. There is always going to be someone unsatisfied with the decision. There have been a few precedents which we've outlined in the intial post. While we've considered them, we want to do what is right today and we believe that this is the right call. In our minds, the people make up a clan and not the other way around. I also fully acknowledge that the LEA/ACME situation is similar. If the current panel was in charge at the time, there is only one resolution to that issue and that is ACME getting that spot in C.


It is fair for people to disagree with this opinion. But to come out and say we are stupid or dishonest is a bit harsh. At the end of the day, we all want a league which is consistent and fair. If there are no rules which can be used to decide on a contentious issue, there will always be subjective opinion. The best we can do at this point is to institute a rule which outlines how such issues will be dealt with in the future. Does that guarantee that we will have a rule to fall back on, for every issue that arises? Of course not.

Running this league is a thankless task. I can see why ChrisCMU quit, and we're inclined to do the same if the majority thinks we're not up to the job.

So I would like to ask every registered leader in CL8 to vote on the following:
- We would like the current panel to stay. They are doing the job to the best of their ability.
- We would like the current panel to give up control. There are others who are more capable of running this competition.

I will create a chat game with all the registered leaders of CL8 and you have 2 weeks to vote. If we don't receive a vote from a leader, that's an abstention. If you vote that we should leave, we'll gladly do so. Once the next panel in place, we will help them to the best of our ability if they require anything from us. We have a CLOT which can run the competition on the new format proposed a month ago. If a new panel is instituted, we will give them access to the CLOT if they decide to use the new format.


If you vote to keep the current panel, we will respond to some valid concerns raised around issues like clan hijacking, B teams etc. We've talked about these issues, but I am in no mood to give explanations when people are questioning our integrity.


EDIT: Link to the vote chat - https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=12132630

Edited 10/17/2016 06:10:43
Clan League 8 Division B Official Thread: 10/17/2016 05:38:31


Bonsai 
Level 63
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#motd4prez
Clan League 8 Division B Official Thread: 10/17/2016 06:38:24

{101st} Forgotten Knight
Level 55
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ok, so here we go again I guess. (although like everyone else, I agree that it is getting troublesome just trying to get CL council to admit having made a mistake).

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/take_one%27s_ball_and_go_home#English

I've linked an article relevant to the current situation.

When we were kids, we all knew that one kid. He was the one who owned the baseball bat or the soccer ball or some other essential equipment to play the sport.
The Clan League council owns the Clan League "ball".

Anyhow, back to this kid. When playing with him, he would play by a different set of rules. Essentially, he would cheat. He would cheat because he knew he could get away with it. Why could he get away with it? Because he owned the ball and if you ever dared to call him out for his cheating....you all know what would happen. He would take his ball and go home.

This is what Clan League is threatening with this ridiculous vote of confidence they're taking. If we don't all pony up and get in line, they are willing to burn clan league to the ground, because who else is ready to take over?

That's how important this is to them. This is how unwilling to admit to a mistake they are. They are ready to kill the whole league.

Oh and by the way..... we all keep getting told that Outlaws WERE NOT given special access to the council. And we all keep getting told that 101st WAS NOT kept at arms length.....and yet....

Look at the game of all the division A and B clan leaders here:
https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=12132630

Take a look at that list of people. Who all is there. Who all is not there. Let me point out a couple obvious ones.
Platinum is there.
I am not.

Clan League leaders, you've all but proved everything I've said about how the process went down. Nobody wants you to quit. We want you to make the right call. You know what the right call is. Basically everyone on this thread except for Nauz and people with an Outlaw tag know what the right call is. Does your pride really prevent you from admitting a mistake? Is this where we're at? We all have to bow down before your Godhood and swear allegiance that you are never wrong or else you're quitting?

I call on you. Humble yourselves. Give a quick "my bad, we didn't think this through" and let's all move on with life.

Edited 10/17/2016 06:49:00
Clan League 8 Division B Official Thread: 10/17/2016 07:04:26

JSA 
Level 60
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As someone who has long been involved in the 101st/Lynx community (been in Lynx for years), and am close with a few Outlaws, I would really like to give a brief opinion.

I agree with the council's decision. That said, this was not a black-and-white issue, and I fully understand why 101st feels they should have gotten the spot. Both clans definitely had a case for it, and I think the council made the correct decision in giving the spot to Outlaws.

The council is not biased. They simply felt that giving the spot to Outlaws was the fairest move here. Reports of the council being Outlaw-friendly simply are not true. Please lay off the council members simply because you do not agree with one decision they made.

Huge thanks to the council for all the hard and thankless work they do!

Edited 10/17/2016 07:05:01
Clan League 8 Division B Official Thread: 10/17/2016 07:28:32


Cloud Strife
Level 61
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Knight, your interpretation of events is overly melodramatic and - no offense - but at times borderline paranoid. I think that's the last thing this thread needs and much like Nauzor, you need to cool it off a bit.

I for one agree with panel's decision 100% as a complete neutral in the matter.I understand their line of thinking, I am relatively familiar with past rulings and the hindsight of it all. The irony of this is that Lynx of all clans should understand why it would be a bad idea to have 101A ruling in this case. It's true that the decision imposed on Lynx previously was a bad one and I think everyone involved expressed a change of heart in hindsight. It would be wrong to let that ruling be a reason to impose the same bad decision on someone else again.

You cannot change the history and all you can is do right by people now, as they say - two wrongs don't make a right. And the opposite kind of ruling, for which we also have precedent(XS -ONE) didn't yield any regrets whatsoever and to this day everyone involved thinks it was a right call.

I assure you there are other people who feel the same way but just don't think it's a good idea to add more flame into all this nonsense. However, the most important part of this, and why I am reacting is your idea of right and wrong based on the level of support. Let's please not get into that mob mentality.

The vote on panel is unfortunately a natural cause-and-effect thing here as some people don't think panel did the good job, and if anything is a sign of integrity. If anyone took a ball and went home,it's the people on "your" side of the fence threatening with boycott because they don't agree with panel's decision. And lest we forget, it IS the panel's decision, that's exactly what that panel is for. It's not mine or yours or people disgruntled with it. So now we vote on whether we have the confidence in that panel or not.

And to be clear there are plenty of other things in the thread that I don't think should've come into making that decision. I did express concern for having an academy play the same league as parent clan (yes I know 101 is technically a parent) but again, it's a separate issue. Also, perceived skill shouldn't come into any decisions (and I think it didn't).
Clan League 8 Division B Official Thread: 10/17/2016 07:52:02

Nauzhror 
Level 58
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@Forgotten Knight

"Basically everyone on this thread except for Nauz and people with an Outlaw tag know what the right call is."

Don't delude yourself. Outraged people are always more likely to be vocal.


It's like a review, when you buy a product and it works great you don't write a review. When you buy a product and it breaks a week later you write a nasty review.

People are far more prone to voice their dissent than they re to voice approval. This should not be news to anyone remotely intelligent, so do not act like a vocal minority constitutes a majority.
Clan League 8 Division B Official Thread: 10/17/2016 08:49:16


Don [ Ω ]
Level 62
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After reading through endless arguments pro and contra on the 101st/outlaws matter. First of all i would like to state that i somehow disagree with the councils decision based on their approach on that voting but i FIRMLY like to point out that those involved i higly value knowing them trying to be fair, friendly and in best interest for majority the clan league.

None the less of course i do accept the decision and also like to say "Thank you once more guys for all the effort and time you put into this to make this event beeing able to happen!!!"

I do agree that the members of outlaws where the ones winning the spot in A but the splitting from 101st during an ongoing season is my main concern.

What i do understand is that 101st still got an active roster and management right?... Has there ever been any DIRECT communication between the leaders and decisionmakers of 101st and outlaws on that spot?

I would like to see that 101st and outlaws come up with a decsion on that topic. 101st should have a vote on if they think they are interested and able to provide a roster capable of competing in A. If not they should give the spot to their former comrades (now outlaws) who haven proven to be good enough to earn their spot in A.

I do believe that both 101st and outlaws do have good understanding of that situation and their actions which led to that incident and the arguments that followed. That said i can see them come forward with conclusion without a decision of the council needed in first place.

Or are their any reasons i dont see why the management of 101st and outlaws are not able to make reasonable and agreeable decision on that? :-)

Step it up guys.... be HONEST and FAIR for the FUN and enjoyment of this game !!:-)

Cheers
Clan League 8 Division B Official Thread: 10/17/2016 08:51:09


ZeroBlindDragon 
Level 60
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Why did the Clan League Council invite Platinum but not ForK to the game where the vote is supposed to take place...?
Clan League 8 Division B Official Thread: 10/17/2016 08:58:43


krunx 
Level 63
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The problem is very simple and clear:

In a clan league the clan owns the participation right and not its players. If we now do violate this simple principle of a clan league, we have a very big problem:

Players change clans and as they form teams, you will have to decide very often, who will gain a spot in which division.

That is not the taks of the council and will always bring the council in such bad situations. Even if we put away this case, the next case will create the exat same situation, which will be decided by "arguments". The only valid argument in a clan league is the participation right which is owned by the clan.

It is completly irrelevant how much work, effort Lynx or someone else did put into 101st. How you like the persons in the clans and who is more likeable. The clan is alive - although some tried to kick all players - and therefore did not loose its right to participation.

I do not see a single arguement to remove the right of participation from 101st. One has to argue, why you remove this right from 101st and not the other way around. And this arguments can only be related to the clan and not to the players - which are irrelvant in case of law for a clan league.

Everything else is arbitrariness. You may not be affected now, but the next situation will occur earlier than we all believe. Lets keep the basic rule of a clan league:
Clans are the essence of a clan league.

Edited 10/17/2016 09:05:45
Clan League 8 Division B Official Thread: 10/17/2016 09:11:04


Deadman 
Level 64
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This is what Clan League is threatening with this ridiculous vote of confidence they're taking. If we don't all pony up and get in line, they are willing to burn clan league to the ground, because who else is ready to take over?

That's how important this is to them. This is how unwilling to admit to a mistake they are. They are ready to kill the whole league.

This is what you got out of my post? Let me try to spell it out better in the hope that it sinks through. We're giving the community the right to vote out this council which makes decisions if it thinks we are dishonest as you have claimed. We're not burning the league down as you seem to claim. We would rather give up our position on the council and have someone else the community trusts than have players boycott the league. I even go so far as to say that we will provide all the help that is asked of us to ensure a smooth transition. We will also give access to the CLOT, which I've spent countless hours coding and testing with players on Warlight. And yet you somehow manage to paint me as the guy who is going to burn down the league?
Why did the Clan League Council invite Platinum but not ForK to the game where the vote is supposed to take place...?

I have invited every registered clan leader at the beginning of CL8. Was ForK registered? Also to be perfectly clear, this vote is not for who gets the spot. This vote is to determine if the panel is dishonest and abusing power.

Edited 10/17/2016 09:19:41
Clan League 8 Division B Official Thread: 10/17/2016 09:17:01


Don [ Ω ]
Level 62
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MotD.... are you out of your mind?????????? :-P

Why even consider an opinion someone calling you or the panel dishonest :-(......

Cheers... thanks for all your efforts :-)

Edited 10/17/2016 09:17:34
Clan League 8 Division B Official Thread: 10/17/2016 09:34:39


ZeroBlindDragon 
Level 60
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I have invited every registered clan leader at the beginning of CL8. Was ForK registered?


If you only account for registered clan leaders at the beginning of CL8, then this means that 101st has no representation whatsoever in this vote considering Platinum was appointed as the registered clan leader for 101st at the start of the season, but walked out to form Outlaws...

Honestly, I believe the decision should be given to clan leaders. Period. Not "registered clan leaders at the start of CL8". AwesomeGuy, for example, is semi-retired and has little to no affiliation with VIW anymore. What can be said about the other ones?
Clan League 8 Division B Official Thread: 10/17/2016 10:20:21


psykkoman
Level 61
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There were no futher talks/discussions until Platinum asked a couple of weeks ago if a decision had been arrived at to which he was told the panel were still in discussion about it and had been discussing it for a couple of months already. No further information was given to us.


Fact : Outlaws state on their clan page "we are looking for players to help us compete in Division A of Clan League"?
I saw this weeks ago.
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