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Posts 1 - 29 of 29   
Dear AOE:: 7/15/2016 04:53:46


kynte
Level 51
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Are these really the kind of people you accept?:

https://www.warlight.net/Forum/167212-france-truck-attack

I mean, if you want to legitimize this sort of behavior and put your stamp of approval on it, more power to you.
Dear AOE:: 7/15/2016 04:58:08


(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 50
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Knyte, as much as I disagree with British Fascist who sometimes does not have any consistent political ideology and promote authoritarianism, I do not believe anyone should be thrown out of AThE for mere views, even outrageous views. We do not need the Thought Police.

America is a free country and it should always be one. That means people should be allowed to say outrageous things.

Edited 7/15/2016 04:59:40
Dear AOE:: 7/15/2016 05:01:10


JulieR34
Level 36
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Not everyone in Warlight is in the USA.
Dear AOE:: 7/15/2016 05:07:30


(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 50
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^But British Fascist is. Believe me, freedom of speech is better than no freedom of speech, even if this means you will hear outrageous things.

Edited 7/15/2016 05:08:37
Dear AOE:: 7/15/2016 05:07:36


{N.W.} Ragnar
Level 41
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I don't believe the issue is if it should be on Warlight or not. I think the issue is that he is essentially representing a Clan, and Knyte is seeing if that Clan is ok with this sort of behavior from its members.
Dear AOE:: 7/15/2016 05:09:39


(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 50
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^If we require AThE to throw BF out due to his speech, people will demand that TJC throw me out due to mere meowing. When you begin to restrict freedom of speech there is only going to be less and less speech allowed, first speech offensive to the most, then speech offensive to the few and mere repetitions of harmless speech such as meowing,

Edited 7/15/2016 05:12:06
Dear AOE:: 7/15/2016 05:11:40


kynte
Level 51
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^^ Exactly. This isn't about freedom of speech. British Fascist would be completely free to politicize tragedies and mock their victims even if he weren't in AThE (that's up to Fizzer, and he's made his views pretty clear that he wants this site to be a free speech platform).

It's about whether or not AOE condones this sort of behavior. And regardless of whether they actually support British Fascist and GeneralPE's behavior, they have chosen this sort of player as members and representatives of their community and tacitly approved their egregious behavior.

@Tabby: No one's requiring AThE to throw anyone out. Clans are completely free to decide who their members are going to be. But it's a choice. You don't allow people who think all cats should be hunted and killed into Felidae, for example, because that's not the sort of people you think should represent you.

No one's asking for AThE to lose their right to pick their members. This isn't an issue of rights to begin with. It's all about choices, their consequences, and what they reflect about you. So no, freedom of speech isn't relevant here. Nor is "meowing" a good comparison to making fun of terror victims. Just like there's an objective difference between saying "I like dogs" and calling for African-Americans to be rounded up and lynched.

Edited 7/15/2016 05:14:58
Dear AOE:: 7/15/2016 05:14:03


(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 50
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^By asking clans to expel players based on mere speech the freedom of speech is de facto threatened due to consequences of unpopular speech.

Yeah I agree. Though I know that I'm the most hated player on WL. Racism is not that much of a problem. On the other hand, loving cats is..as seen by people here.

Edited 7/15/2016 05:16:19
Dear AOE:: 7/15/2016 05:16:08


kynte
Level 51
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By criticizing me for asking something, you're de facto threatening freedom of speech by creating consequences for speech.


Freedom of speech isn't about freedom from consequences. Speech will always have consequences- that's why it's important to begin with.

If a major real-world company tomorrow decided to appoint an official who officially states that we should round up and kill Jews, would I be wrong to criticize them for it? No, because the freedom to criticize and pressure is an important part of freedom of speech.

Edited 7/15/2016 05:18:19
Dear AOE:: 7/15/2016 05:17:03


(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 50
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^Using your criteria there is absolute freedom of speech even in North Korea and IS...but not freedom from consequences of the speech.

Yep I agree with you again. But what about the "freedom" someone has to punish others for undesirable speech?

Edited 7/15/2016 05:20:57
Dear AOE:: 7/15/2016 05:19:31


kynte
Level 51
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In North Korea and the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria, you will be arrested and possibly killed by the government (used loosely here) for certain kinds of speech.

That's not comparable in any way to criticism from other members of the community. Like I said, the freedom to criticize is an important part of freedom of speech. I'm criticizing the actions of AOE and their membership policy here. Just like you're criticizing me here. Both are examples of exercising freedom of speech.

Edited 7/15/2016 05:20:25
Dear AOE:: 7/15/2016 05:20:15


{N.W.} Ragnar
Level 41
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You really are missing the point Tabby....
Dear AOE:: 7/15/2016 05:22:09


(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 50
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^Sort of. That's why I use Chatul for more feline speech. TJC != Tabby. Due to the vast differences between policies of TJC and Felidae I increasingly use my Felidae account for the more outrageous felinist speech.

Edited 7/15/2016 05:24:12
Dear AOE:: 7/15/2016 05:24:20


{N.W.} Ragnar
Level 41
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Edited 7/15/2016 13:20:47
Dear AOE:: 7/15/2016 05:30:07


knyte 
Level 58
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Look, Tabby, if you say something stupid, we're all free to criticize it and say that TJC should raise it standards.

That's exactly why freedom of speech exists- because speech is powerful. Back in the Revolution, Hamilton and Washington used their freedom of speech to:

- criticize the British Empire

- call for consequences against certain British statements (like "screw this we should fight" to "lol no you gotta pay your taxes")

- call for the King of Britain to disavow certain other people's behavior ("this guy said we ain't Englishmen- do you really want to have him represent you, Your Majesty?")

The entire reason speech is such an important thing is because it has consequences- it communicates ideas. It lets us criticize others' actions (including their speech) and call for the disavowal of certain actions (and speech). That's the entire thing we fought to protect in the first place.

So I'm not here calling for the end of freedom of speech. Frankly, that's a stupid argument. Instead, I'm exercising my free speech to criticize someone else's actions and call on AOE to raise the standards for speech it approves (not "allows"- approves).

Moreover, Warlight's not the US government. Fizzer's paying for this website and the content hosted on it. Just like I'm not gonna let someone draw a dick on my bedroom door, Fizzer himself has every right to not allow people to say or do certain things (like profanity) on his site. Freedom of speech doesn't even apply here in that sense- it's literally a restriction on just government action. Fizzer's completely free to not give British Fascist a platform (although he's decided to do so, and that's not a bad thing at all). But that's different from AOE approving and condoning British Fascist's (and GeneralPE's) speech and behavior by accepting him in their clan. Just like people can call out Nestle when their CEO says "water shouldn't be free"- because it's Nestle's choice to promote his speech, not allow it. Without Nestle's support, he can still say whatever they want. And to require Nestle + the community to continue supporting him regardless of what he says is just straight-up oppression in and of itself- it violates their own freedom of conscience.

There's a lot of big things you seem to be missing here. Like, not even subtle things. Maybe think things through before voicing your opinion next time?

PS: Arguments are more compelling if you don't go out of your way to compare things to "felinism" and "meowing."

Edited 7/15/2016 05:32:32
Dear AOE:: 7/15/2016 05:32:44

[FEL]Chatul
Level 22
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Meow!

@knyte I agree that clans do promote values. For example the values of Felidae are in essence the following: Law-abiding, anti-authoritarian, cat-loving and progress. By banning racism (explicitly including both anti-black and anti-white racism), Communism and Nazism, I promote some unique form of libertarian universalism as opposed to what a left-wing hipster usually does. (BTW I'm a Ted Cruz fan in case you do not know) I believe that humans should be free and responsible individuals (cat-like) as opposed to collectivists (dog-like).

The reason I voiced my objection is due to my concern that being unpopular and by extension being different itself (such as being a Haredi among secular people for example) can have consequences. When freedom of speech exists but certain speech is not just criticized but also leads to consequences to the speaker it is a de facto restriction on freedom of speech through social coercion. An unpopular but peaceful religion is a good example.

There is a reason I used meowing as an example, Repetitive meowing is harmless, so is starting a cat chat. However this behavior caused more uproar than actual offensive speech. Nobody told Karl to stop when he falsely accused me of nonexistent crimes (such as kidnapping when what I did was merely recruiting people into Felidae) and caused significant psychological distress (though it later disappeared). However starting a cat chat is a much bigger problem, huh?

Ultimately what you proposed wouldn't be enforced on people such as BF but instead will be used on Anonym and me because nothing is a greater offense than meowing and the coffee cup map. There is no worse public enemy than me since I love cats. Offensive speech does not generate even remotely as many negative responses as my cat chat thread.

Edited 7/15/2016 05:54:49
Dear AOE:: 7/15/2016 05:58:10


LeQuébécois_Benoit
Level 60
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AOE seems to take anyone in anyways...It clearly shows on forums and in competitions like CL8 (Clan League) they don't take WL gaming seriously.
Dear AOE:: 7/15/2016 05:59:00

[FEL]Chatul
Level 22
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I'm waiting until people attempt to ban and liquidate Felidae for no offense other than loving cats.;-)
KKK and New Black Panthers will live longer than harmless dreams of cat lovers.

Edited 7/15/2016 06:00:38
Dear AOE:: 7/15/2016 05:59:39

[FEL]Chatul
Level 22
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^^ They take RPCL seriously?
Dear AOE:: 7/15/2016 06:01:27


knyte 
Level 58
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I didn't propose anything. I just asked AOE whether they actually condone BF and GeneralPE's behavior. And even if they become pariahs as a consequence of their speech, that's no different from the KKK's views no longer being acceptable in American politics. They're still free to say what they want, but freedom of speech does not isolate yourself from consequences. If you're going to professionally criticize Hamilton because it was made by a Puerto Rican, for example, yes you'll be penalized when you're fired from your job as a consequence, and no that doesn't mean you've lost your freedom of speech. You can still say that Puerto Ricans inherently make terrible musicals, but the rest of us have no obligation to condone that behavior.

Also, you're making a slippery slope argument here. There's no reason community disavowal of making fun of terror attack victims is going to lead to a ban on meowing. Ever. Just like how we have bans on yelling fire in a theater or saying "I want to kill the President" in real life but are completely still free to say pretty much what we want. I mean, your argument's no more reasonable than saying we'll eventually imprison everyone just because we currently imprison thieves and murderers. There's no mechanism whatsoever for that transition to happen just because we take the initial action.

What you're actually arguing for here is a set of restrictions. Under the banner of "freedom," these are the freedoms you're arguing against:

- the freedom to criticize (because it would make someone else a pariah, apparently)

- the freedom to call for action (because again it would apparently make someone a pariah if they get kicked out of a Warlight clan? How does that even take away their freedom of speech?)

- the freedom to not condone everything. You're literally calling us to condone all kinds of speech and calling for us to lose our right to disavow speech we think is wrong or harmful.

Ironically, you're the one arguing against freedom of speech here.
Dear AOE:: 7/15/2016 06:16:38


[AOE]Orthrus Echo Five
Level 51
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As the first member of AOE to respond to this thread, I would like to say that, while subject matter of this nature is not tolerated, it has come to be known within our clan the British Facist speaks out this way, and it's not the first time. However, behavior of this sort has never really been seen coming out of GeneralPE. As our newly appointed Vice Head Proctor to J willy, he has much to live up to, and we stand by him and any member of AOE.

Not to say that what was said on that thread wasn't wrong. Quite frankly, it breaks my heart to know that people who live where terrorists attacks have happened experience such heartache, and yet laugh at other nations when the same thing happens to them. I'm sure our Senate will be talking about it soon. Rest assured that this issue will be resolved not only within our clan, but with Fizzer.

I hope my words can be a little more enlightening to you during this time.

-OEF
Dear AOE:: 7/15/2016 07:49:41


Apollo
Level 56
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Looks like me leaving and abandoning the Department of Recruiting has taken a toll on AOE
Dear AOE:: 7/15/2016 08:24:54

Semicedevine
Level 59
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^If we require AThE to throw BF out due to his speech, people will demand that TJC throw me out due to mere meowing.

...

people will demand that TJC throw me out due to mere meowing.
people will demand that TJC throw me out due to mere meowing.
people will demand that TJC throw me out due to mere meowing.
people will demand that TJC throw me out due to mere meowing.
people will demand that TJC throw me out due to mere meowing.
people will demand that TJC throw me out due to mere meowing.
people will demand that TJC throw me out due to mere meowing.
people will demand that TJC throw me out due to mere meowing.
people will demand that TJC throw me out due to mere meowing.
people will demand that TJC throw me out due to mere meowing.
people will demand that TJC throw me out due to mere meowing.
people will demand that TJC throw me out due to mere meowing.
people will demand that TJC throw me out due to mere meowing.
people will demand that TJC throw me out due to mere meowing.
people will demand that TJC throw me out due to mere meowing.
people will demand that TJC throw me out due to mere meowing.
people will demand that TJC throw me out due to mere meowing.
people will demand that TJC throw me out due to mere meowing.
people will demand that TJC throw me out due to mere meowing.
people will demand that TJC throw me out due to mere meowing.
people will demand that TJC throw me out due to mere meowing.
people will demand that TJC throw me out due to mere meowing.
people will demand that TJC throw me out due to mere meowing.
people will demand that TJC throw me out due to mere meowing.
people will demand that TJC throw me out due to mere meowing.
people will demand that TJC throw me out due to mere meowing.
people will demand that TJC throw me out due to mere meowing.
people will demand that TJC throw me out due to mere meowing.
people will demand that TJC throw me out due to mere meowing.
people will demand that TJC throw me out due to mere meowing.
people will demand that TJC throw me out due to mere meowing.
people will demand that TJC throw me out due to mere meowing.
people will demand that TJC throw me out due to mere meowing.
people will demand that TJC throw me out due to mere meowing.
people will demand that TJC throw me out due to mere meowing.
people will demand that TJC throw me out due to mere meowing.
people will demand that TJC throw me out due to mere meowing.
people will demand that TJC throw me out due to mere meowing.
people will demand that TJC throw me out due to mere meowing.
people will demand that TJC throw me out due to mere meowing.
people will demand that TJC throw me out due to mere meowing.
people will demand that TJC throw me out due to mere meowing.
people will demand that TJC throw me out due to mere meowing.
people will demand that TJC throw me out due to mere meowing.
people will demand that TJC throw me out due to mere meowing.
people will demand that TJC throw me out due to mere meowing.
people will demand that TJC throw me out due to mere meowing.
people will demand that TJC throw me out due to mere meowing.












THROW BRITISH FAGGOT OUT PLSSSSS IM BEGGING YOU

Edited 7/15/2016 08:25:21
Dear AOE:: 7/15/2016 08:24:55

Semicedevine
Level 59
Report
i was high ok

Edited 7/15/2016 08:25:48
Dear AOE:: 7/15/2016 08:30:22


Mirage
Level 56
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Tabby I heard you ranting about some new anime clan earlier, with it being offensive or some bullshit for its clan pic and now you are yourself asking for the need of freedom of speech and expression.....lol.
Dear AOE:: 7/15/2016 09:18:13

snife
Level 53
Report
I don't get why you are discussing about freedom of speach.
This thread has clearly nothing to do with freedom of speech. It is a troll thread which mocks on people who died or lost there loved ones.

As freedom does not allow you to hurt or kill someone, freedom of speech does not allow you to insult or bully someone.
This thread is not constructive. It is just disrespectfull and and meant to provoke.

Edited 7/15/2016 09:18:34
Dear AOE:: 7/15/2016 09:19:59


kynte
Level 51
Report
Exactly. And while Fizzer's clearly okay with people using Warlight to that end, that doesn't mean AOE (or anyone else) should put their stamp of approval on players like BF and GeneralPE. It certainly casts doubt about AOE leadership and recruitment.
Dear AOE:: 7/15/2016 15:39:22


[AOE]Orthrus Echo Five
Level 51
Report
We don't approve any inappropriate behavior in our clan. Maybe that wasn't made clear enough to you, Kynte, in my previous post.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wiMq93OoMfcirJFXb81lYKuPuikx4ylBBlgHs-ONHYU/edit?pref=2&pli=1

Artice 2 Section 2 is all you need to read from this document. If you really want to discuss this further, feel free to send a PM to AOE Leadership directly, instead of making a thread in the public forums.

Thank you.

-OEF
Dear AOE:: 7/15/2016 15:51:33


Ex-Kaerox
Level 59
Report
@snife

THANK YOU.
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