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What are the harms / benefits to mirror picking?: 7/19/2016 22:01:12


OxTheAutist 
Level 58
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I've discussed it several times with people before, and I can't wrap my head around either way.

On the one hand, I think mirror picking is useful because it allows a team to, for example, go really heavy and place all their picks on 1 efficient bonus to try and guarantee the capture of it.

While on the other hand, it makes it more random and difficult to coordinate because you won't know who will be getting what.

Take Europe, for example. I have no clue whether to mirror pick or not on it 0_o . The reason why, is because there are loads of good double-picks, like Iceland+Ireland; but the Division A seem to generally always play with mirror picks.

So do you vary up your mirror picking? Like, have 1 2 3 4 all individual, then the rest, you mirror pick. Or is this just worthless because then it's a dumb hybrid?

And how do you tell when to mirror pick and when not to? I couldn't wrap my head around this either x_x

I hope I'm asking the same question on other peoples' minds too, haha. Cheers! ^^
What are the harms / benefits to mirror picking?: 7/19/2016 22:48:49

Wick 
Level 50
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In my opinion, mirror pick is easier to understand and is in some ways the default for a 2v2 type game (I have no 3v3 experience) when there are clearly certain bonuses that are the best (depending on random warlords starts/wastelands).

On the other hand, non-mirror picks help when you have combos that are not easily split between teammates. For example, if it is WR instead of SR, then 1 army taps from one teammate aren't as helpful to the other teammate with the 60% success chance. Also there are the obvious cases where you just can't quickly complete the bonus without two spots by the same team member. These types of situations lend themselves more to non-mirror picking.

When mirror picking, its important to remember the pick order, so at the least if you have 2 starts per player, and two players, for example, you may want picks 1&4 match player A and picks 2&3 match where you would want player B. But if an enemy gets one of the picks it can mess up this order and you have no way of knowing how that's going to turn out. But you typically want your best-case scenario of getting picks 1-4 to turn out they way you want it (unless you're sure about some counter or something). If you non-mirror picked in this case, you can be somewhat (but not completely) more confident in which teammate will have a presence in which part of the map for the highest picks (the later picks are also less confident).

None of these ideas are completely true in every situation, so it really depends on the board. There can be some settings where some games you decide to mirror, and other games with exact same settings you decide not to mirror. It can also throw off your enemies what kind of strategy you plan to adopt, in case they are watching your previous games.
What are the harms / benefits to mirror picking?: 7/19/2016 23:09:32


Semicedevine
Level 59
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^ +1

yea when mirroring you can plan which players get which picks beforehand by pairing up picks 1,4,5 and picks 2,3,6

Edited 7/19/2016 23:10:24
What are the harms / benefits to mirror picking?: 7/20/2016 00:06:04


Platinum
Level 58
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In Europe, Mirror picking for the most part is nearly an essential for all great EU teams on the 3v3 Ladder!

There are so many crucial areas of the map that it's important to get priority, So mirroring your top 6 picks as a team is really awesome, As you guarantee at least 3/6 of your top 6 picks and you get your 6/12 picks. It's more consistent and pick order is very important most top EU teams would likely have the same top 6 picks so it's important to note certain scenarios in how picks could potentially play-out.
What are the harms / benefits to mirror picking?: 7/20/2016 00:31:02


MarkusBM
Level 57
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Take Europe, for example. I have no clue whether to mirror pick or not on it 0_o . The reason why, is because there are loads of good double-picks, like Iceland+Ireland; but the Division A seem to generally always play with mirror picks.


With the example you provided in mind, you have to think about it like this: What are the best 2 picks on the map? Often Iceland and Ireland, since they have only 2 single borders each to worry about, meaning once you have either of the two, you're pretty much set for the rest of the game, as breaking into it is really difficult, unless the team having the bonus deliberately lets you in, because another area is more important at that given time. If only one member picks both as 1+2, while the other people do other combos, getting even 1 of the 2 becomes unlikely if the other team mirrors it, since you have to be before at least 2 of them in the turn order to get your pick there. You could argue that that increases the likelyhood of your other guys getting their combos, but if those combos are something like an FTB on Austria or in Russia, the fact that the other team mirror picked lets them get presence there despite not even having the picks in their first 6 picks.

Basically, the more important certain areas are, the more you should consider mirror picking them. A combo with Spain and Portugal on EU is often a bad one to get if you split it between two members, as the guy with the Spain pick can end up with a completely useless pick since he can't really help the guy with Portugal. This means certain combos can be picked by only one person earlier on in the picks, as long as you remember to get the really important picks in before reaching the lower tier combos like a Portugal combo generally speaking is.
What are the harms / benefits to mirror picking?: 7/20/2016 00:42:53


Platinum
Level 58
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Wanted to poke a little attention to this game https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=11413811 , Where Masters had a very interesting picking approach most noticeably on Sephiroth + Master Atom and maybe Motd as 11 + 13 pick had combo on Western Balkans.

It's an interesting strategy as it puts some focus on combos. I believe Masters had full intel and I do remember Farah being so happy at how awesome Masters played the comeback as GG were ahead on picks. Though if a picking strategy like this leads you behind on picks I guess it isn't a particularly the best one to for every game!

Are combos worth the alternative strategy on pick order? 12 + 13 than late picks in Isolated bonuses / Control picks in Finland or Bulgaria depending on board.

So, That is a way of trying not to split a combo, Ensuring a person gets the combo to itself.

Edited 7/20/2016 03:29:04
What are the harms / benefits to mirror picking?: 7/20/2016 00:51:55


knyte 
Level 58
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4lCMa73r_I

Could someone define mirror picking?
What are the harms / benefits to mirror picking?: 7/20/2016 01:28:31


Carlos
Level 58
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Knyte, when, in some team games, all teammates picks exactly the same territories, in the same order, is the basic/full/total mirror. There are some variations, with partial mirror (for example, in a EU 3v3, one team pick the same territories for 1-12 and pick different for the rest) or with a mirror (all same territories) with different pick order (some of the best teams knows how to do this, it seems that its possible to have more organization doing that, i think that the #1 in ladder do that).

Some advantages that i noticed is that, when the team knows what they are doing and where is the best places, they will get more good spots. Basically if the team is good and knows the map, they will be stronger with mirror.

But i noticed too that when the team do bad picks and mirror then, they got almost all bad picks they went for. Thats because the bad territories will not be picked by the other team. Also, if the team dont predict correctly the other team picks, some regions will be completely controled by enemies.

Edited 7/20/2016 01:34:14
What are the harms / benefits to mirror picking?: 7/20/2016 03:16:59

Jaymer
Level 56
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While on the other hand, [mirror picking] makes it more random and difficult to coordinate because you won't know who will be getting what.


Another way to look at it is: Non-mirror picking makes it more random and difficult to coordinate because you won't know what order your team is really picking each territory.

In 3v3 for example, since you don't know what the order of players within your team will be, if somebody on your team picks territory A and B as picks 1+2, and the others don't, you don't know if your team is picking A and B as 1+6, 2+5, or 3+4. That can make a big difference.

Mirror picking views the team more as one unit and ensures that your team gets the territories they feel are most important. It depends on the template, but on 3v3 Europe at least, this usually outweighs any advantages from a player getting a combo, especially since the combo is never guaranteed even if you don't mirror pick. However, as some others mentioned, there is a case to be made for adjusting the order of certain players' picks to increase the chance of a nice combo. My 3v3 Europe team is experimenting with this, and it seems like a viable tactic, although it makes things a little more complicated.

Edited 7/20/2016 03:30:24
What are the harms / benefits to mirror picking?: 7/20/2016 03:24:25


knyte 
Level 58
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@Carlos: thanks! I wasn't clear on whether mirror involved the exact same picks or just the exact same minus the first N territories (where N is how many each player gets)
What are the harms / benefits to mirror picking?: 8/7/2016 17:24:44

Qi 
Level 55
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Harm: narcissism
Benefit: self-knowledge
What are the harms / benefits to mirror picking?: 8/10/2016 10:13:03


[WM] Gnuffone 
Level 60
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While on the other hand, it makes it more random and difficult to coordinate because you won't know who will be getting what.


This is a common misconception. The point to mirror is try to control who get what and decrease chance to get bad position, and overall get a better coverage of the map.

Most of players, even who reached good ladder spot, doesn't understand properly/perfecetly how mirror pick work.

Assuming we play eu 3v3 ladder setting, if you mirror, you should consider whoever will take 1st pick, will likely take his personal 2nd pick as 11th/12th overall pick. And etc.

The best way to mirror is consider the "basic" scenario where pick are splitted 1/12/13/24 ; 2/11/14/23; etc and tweak them, considering chance of opponent pick your same initial 6/12.
If everytime you pick, you will think in this way, will be lot easier get control of who get what.

Edited 8/10/2016 10:14:03
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