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The atomic bombings were not needed: 7/22/2016 19:53:33


Major General Smedley Butler
Level 49
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Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts, and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey's opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945, and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated.
- US War Department Strategic Bombing Survey

Now can we end this discussion or do we have someone challenging the US War Department's opinion on it's own actions?
The atomic bombings were not needed: 7/22/2016 19:59:46


GeneralPE
Level 56
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That's only because we would have firebombed them. Stop being cucked, find help fast
The atomic bombings were not needed: 7/22/2016 20:11:58


Major General Smedley Butler
Level 49
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Are you actually so ignorant? They fucking said that they would capitulate regardless you fucking dimwit.

Pretty much every major general, the war department and the Japanese were in agreement that the nuclear bombings were not needed and Japan would have surrendered.

The Japanese had, in fact, already sued for peace. The atomic bomb played no decisive part, from a purely military point of view, in the defeat of Japan.


-Nimitz

But please tell me how Nimitz meant that more fire bombings were needed.
The atomic bombings were not needed: 7/22/2016 20:13:55


Belgian Gentleman
Level 55
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Smedley's thread on this was not needed
The atomic bombings were not needed: 7/22/2016 20:14:20


TeamGuns 
Level 58
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I agree that the nukes werent needed, they were less mortal then the conventional bombing of Tokyo and dealt less structural damage than other normal bombings.

But I disagree that the USSR had no impact whastoever there. Japan was ready to fight till the end, and had millions of soldiers prepared for an
American d-day for Japan,they wanted to persuade the US not to attack mainland Japan due to massive cadualties predicted ~500k predicted by US forces. They wanted to use Russia as mediator of such negotiations.

Russia entering the war ended any peace possibility that wasnt a total capitulation and wouldnt allow Japan to make it's last stand, fighting one superpower is already hard, try fighting 2.
The atomic bombings were not needed: 7/22/2016 20:19:42


Major General Smedley Butler
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But I disagree that the USSR had no impact whastoever there.

I think they meant that regardless of the Soviets invading Manchuria, the Japanese would have to surrender.

Japan was ready to fight till the end, and had millions of soldiers prepared for an
American d-day for Japan,they wanted to persuade the US not to attack mainland Japan due to massive cadualties predicted ~500k predicted by US forces. They wanted to use Russia as mediator of such negotiations.


Japan was not ready to fight to the end, the Peace Party was growing at a fast pace, many high ranking officers were wanting to call it quits and Japan was not in a state to fight off any invasion. And the 500,000+ estimate is also from Truman, not the military itself at the time, which estimated far lower estimates on how many would die.
The atomic bombings were not needed: 7/22/2016 20:21:55


Major General Smedley Butler
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We underestimated the ability of our air attack on Japan's home islands, coupled as it was with blockade and previous military defeats, to achieve unconditional surrender without invasion. By July 1945, the weight of our air attack had as yet reached only a fraction of its planned proportion, Japan's industrial potential had been fatally reduced, her civilian population had lost its confidence in victory and was approaching the limit of its endurance, and her leaders, convinced of the inevitability of defeat, were preparing to accept surrender. The only remaining problem was the timing and terms of that surrender.


Remember, this survey was conducted among the Japanese populace and high ranking Japanese military and government officials.
The atomic bombings were not needed: 7/22/2016 20:46:26


#The Prussian Job-Oh yeah, baby...
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Actually, that´s pretty true. Japan even offered a surrender to the USA, only days before the ultimatum phased out and the USA´s military staff did not accept, because they wanted to test "Fat Man" and "Little Boy" first and needed a testing area. Since they didn´t wanted to contaminate their own nation´s population, they throwed them at Japan which would have surrendered anyways; Even a high ranked US-militarian, some general or such, committed that Japan has already surrendered, however Truman did not accept it; They needed Japan to demonstrate their newly gained power.
The atomic bombings were not needed: 7/22/2016 20:49:33


BUFFALO
Level 43
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japan invading the rest of asia was not needed
The atomic bombings were not needed: 7/22/2016 20:51:38


Eklipse {TJC}
Level 56
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A lot of citations needed.

The end of World War 2 was a bad situation, but the casualties would have been horrific no matter which path was picked. It's either kill 200,000 with nukes, or risk 200,000+ dying in more slaughters. It's easy to sit on your moral high horse and say which one is better when you weren't the one who had to make the decision that would kill people either way.

Japan was not ready to fight to the end, the Peace Party was growing at a fast pace, many high ranking officers were wanting to call it quits

Yeah, that's why a sizable chunk of the military brass tried to pull a coup when they heard about a possible surrender.

because they wanted to test "Fat Man" and "Little Boy" first and needed a testing area. Since they didn´t wanted to contaminate their own nation´s population, they throwed them at Japan which would have surrendered anyways

The first nuke was tested in the desert on U.S soil. Additionally, the U.S used several remote islands later on to test nuclear devices. The whole conspiracy theory about the U.S using Japan for a "test" is total bunk, there was plenty of other places to do it.

Edited 7/22/2016 20:53:31
The atomic bombings were not needed: 7/22/2016 20:53:16


#The Prussian Job-Oh yeah, baby...
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It was, because without Japan civilizing half of Asia they thus helped to built South Corea and Indochinese Nations and Taiwan. The remaining parts of Asia stayed uncivilised, such as North Corea, China, Russia, Australia,etc.
The atomic bombings were not needed: 7/22/2016 21:04:15


Major General Smedley Butler
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It's either kill 200,000 with nukes, or risk 200,000+ dying in more slaughters

You need proof of this, I have provided quotes directly from generals and the US military itself stating after the fact that this was not necessary and that Japan would surrender without the bombings or an invasion. I have cited books as well, that show the statements about how the casualties would be lower than 500K too.

Yeah, that's why a sizable chunk of the military brass tried to pull a coup when they heard about a possible surrender.

A brigade of soldiers held the Imperial Palace for a night. That's not a sizeable chunk.
The atomic bombings were not needed: 7/22/2016 21:05:11


Major General Smedley Butler
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The first nuke was tested in the desert on U.S soil. Additionally, the U.S used several remote islands later on to test nuclear devices. The whole conspiracy theory about the U.S using Japan for a "test" is total bunk, there was plenty of other places to do it.

This ^
The atomic bombings were not needed: 7/22/2016 21:06:13


Hostile
Level 58
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Castle Bravo contamination[edit]

The unexpectedly large yield, combined with other factors, led to the most significant accidental radiological contamination caused by the United States. A few minutes after the detonation, blast debris began to fall on Eneu/Enyu Island on Bikini Atoll where the U.S crew that triggered the device were located. When their geiger counters detected the unexpected fallout, they were forced to shelter in place indoors for a number of hours before it was safe enough for an airlift rescue operation to be carried out.[18]

After impacting Eneu, the fallout continued to spread across the inhabited islands of the Rongelap, Rongerik, and Utrik Atolls. The inhabitants of Rongelap and Rongerik Atolls were evacuated by US servicemen two days after the detonation, but the residents of the more distant Utrik Atoll weren't evacuated for three days.[19][20] Many of the inhabitants soon began to show symptoms of acute radiation syndrome. They returned to the islands three years later but were forced to relocate again when their islands were found to be unsafe.[21]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_testing_at_Bikini_Atoll



I don't know why test with *huge* nukes. Maybe smaller "mock" models would work as well.
Unless it is to show how much military power you have if you can manufacture super gigantic heavy nuke bombs.
The atomic bombings were not needed: 7/22/2016 21:06:46


Eklipse {TJC}
Level 56
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You've cited nothing. Anyone can put something in quotes and call it official. Where's the actual sources?

A brigade of soldiers held the Imperial Palace for a night. That's not a sizeable chunk.

Soldiers backed by high-ranking officers.
The atomic bombings were not needed: 7/22/2016 21:07:13


#The Prussian Job-Oh yeah, baby...
Level 49
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Tough they used Japan. It ain´t bunk. It´s reality. Confirmed by the US-military itself.
The atomic bombings were not needed: 7/22/2016 21:26:00


Major General Smedley Butler
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The atomic bombings were not needed: 7/22/2016 21:35:47


#The Prussian Job-Oh yeah, baby...
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Idk, you can link it a hundred times, yo stupid redneck, but I won´t read it, that´s all I know.
The atomic bombings were not needed: 7/22/2016 21:47:02


Жұқтыру
Level 55
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Smedley stop shilling for Japan.
The atomic bombings were not needed: 7/22/2016 22:05:51


#The Prussian Job-Oh yeah, baby...
Level 49
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JAPAN!!!!
The atomic bombings were not needed: 7/22/2016 22:06:20


Leibstandarte (Vengeance)
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eys mgsb
The atomic bombings were not needed: 7/22/2016 22:07:49


TeamGuns 
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There was a surrender offer, but the US wanted inconditionnal surrender, a thing Japan didn't wanted as it was a threat to the imperial institution and Japan's integrity. And I don't think that they wanted to test the A-bomb in Japan, they knew it worked, was more of a sign of strengh to the world that America was the big boss there. But as a matter of efficiency, it was a waste of money. Conventional bombings did more damage with a bigger kill rate without the need of a billionaire research program and more to manufacture the first bombs.
The atomic bombings were not needed: 7/22/2016 22:09:29


#The Prussian Job-Oh yeah, baby...
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THAT`S pretty MUCH of WHAT I SAID, yo´thief....referring to Team Guns.
The atomic bombings were not needed: 7/22/2016 22:23:40


TeamGuns 
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Hmmmm, I'm pretty sure I didn't intended to steal "your idea". As a matter of fact I barely read every person's post, I ignore a lot and I read very fast. I guess you should be proud to have reached the same conclusions I did ;)
The atomic bombings were not needed: 7/22/2016 22:58:43


adrian waco
Level 25
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Why sacrifice any American lives when you can finish them off with 2 destructive bombs?

The bombings were justified. It secured unconditional victory, showed the world the power of the bomb, and saved American lives.

Only a idiot would think to judge tough decisions from hindsight.
The atomic bombings were not needed: 7/22/2016 23:37:35


Major General Smedley Butler
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Why sacrifice any American lives when you can finish them off with 2 destructive bombs?

You wouldn't have had to, just blockade them and wait for the talks to finish, and occupy.

It secured unconditional victory

Which was useless because the one Japanese demand was for the emperor to retain his titles, which the Americans were ok with anyway.

showed the world the power of the bomb

Showing your hand needlessly is dumb. Even from your immoral stance I could think of a few ways that using the bomb in a different way would have produced better results for America, especially with a non-Nuclear Soviet Union.

Only a idiot would think to judge tough decisions from hindsight.

It wasn't a tough decision if pretty much all the generals were telling you not to do it and that it was awful and unneeded. It's just you deciding to do it to show off. And if you're trolling fine then, but you don't judge decisions from hindsight? We should invade Iraq, Canada, Iran and Saudi Arabia then, there's nothing to tell us it would go badly.
The atomic bombings were not needed: 7/23/2016 00:14:19


Leibstandarte (Vengeance)
Level 40
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I bet you wish for a nuclear weapons clear world too MGSB...
The atomic bombings were not needed: 7/23/2016 00:34:36


adrian waco
Level 25
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You shouldn't judge decisions after the results are made. You need to go back to the mindset of the decision being made before the results was shown.

I recall that the military advised JFK to nuke the soviets during the missile crisis. Sometimes you need to disobey the advice of counsel.

The enemy deserved no shots of negotiating after Pearl Harbor. You get what you get or you are bombed.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/general-article/pacific-operation-downfall/

Edited 7/23/2016 00:36:07
The atomic bombings were not needed: 7/23/2016 01:14:12


Major General Smedley Butler
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You shouldn't judge decisions after the results are made. You need to go back to the mindset of the decision being made before the results was shown.

"In 1945 ... , Secretary of War Stimson visited my headquarters in Germany, [and] informed me that our government was preparing to drop an atomic bomb on Japan. I was one of those who felt that there were a number of cogent reasons to question the wisdom of such an act.... During his recitation of the relevant facts, I had been conscious of a feeling of depression and so I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and second because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives. It was my belief that Japan was, at that very moment, seeking some way to surrender with a minimum loss of 'face.' The Secretary was deeply perturbed by my attitude, almost angrily refuting the reasons I gave for my quick conclusions."


My opinion stands even without the results.

The enemy deserved no shots of negotiating after Pearl Harbor. You get what you get or you are bombed.

Go to hell. What the fuck did tens of thousands of civilians do for that? Oh, they're within a certain geographic area, they deserve to die because you can't accept one term, or you can't wait a few fucking months for some prick miles away to sign some papers to stop your conflict.

Let's say that after Midway, the Japanese wanted to sign a treaty, but had the terms of retreating just from American and European territory gotten. Using your logic, tens of thousands of folk on both sides should fight and die, because they "deserve no shots of negotiation".
The atomic bombings were not needed: 7/23/2016 02:43:58


Paugers
Level 41
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What the fuck did tens of thousands of civilians do for that?

They supported a government that caused the deaths of millions, it's as much as a war crime as the soldier who did the actual killing.
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