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Clan League 8 Group B - Retirement: 7/24/2016 23:01:09

Master of the Dead 
Level 62
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We've been notified on July 16, 2016 4:51 PM by 101st that one of their players(Jinxed) has retired.

Here are the two stated rules on retirements at the start of the season.(https://www.warlight.net/Forum/141458-clan-league-8-preparation-thread )
5) Makeups - No makeup games AT ALL. No points if both sides booted. Players will be given a small boot bank to allow for a mistake.

6) Retirements - Someone can take over an account for a retired player if it is declared and they violate no other CL rules in the process (RR limit, 2 clans, etc). A player can also be replaced entirely in a tournament due to retirement (if you have no access to their account), but only in games not started yet.


It's taken a few days to resolve the issue and communicate among the CL panel as well as all Group B leaders. I believe every Group B leader is on board with this decision(except kram who did not respond). We've decided as per Rule 6, that all games in pick stage(not turn 1) after that date(7/16/2016) are eligible to be replaced outside the RR tourney. Jinxed must be replaced by another player who is not in 3 tournaments already.

The following games will be replayed.


We'll figure out how to create these replacement games so as to not overburden players with too many games at once. Jinxed obviously cannot compete in any of these replacement games.

Group B clan leaders should communicate this to their players.

Edited 7/25/2016 18:04:37
Clan League 8 Group B - Retirement: 7/25/2016 00:26:57


Hades
Level 62
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101st/outlaws are back in the race
Clan League 8 Group B - Retirement: 7/25/2016 01:45:05


knyte 
Level 58
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if it is declared


Does this strictly mean PM'ing or otherwise directly contacting the management of Clan League? Or is this rule more loosely construed? (Asking because that might affect some clans in Division D and possibly CORP in C).




Also props for going by notification date and not decision date.

Edited 7/25/2016 01:59:18
Clan League 8 Group B - Retirement: 7/25/2016 01:53:20


Sephiroth
Level 59
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101st/outlaws are back in the race
racists
Clan League 8 Group B - Retirement: 7/25/2016 02:06:03

Master of the Dead 
Level 62
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Does this strictly mean PM'ing or otherwise directly contacting the management of Clan League? Or is this rule more loosely construed? (Asking because that might affect some clans in Division D and possibly CORP in C).


Any form of notification to the CL panel should do.
Clan League 8 Group B - Retirement: 7/25/2016 02:19:47


AWESOMEGUY 
Level 62
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Who decides the replacements? 101st is the clan, but outlaws makes a majority of those already in the lineup...both have a strong claim to the position of replacements.
Clan League 8 Group B - Retirement: 7/25/2016 02:35:52


Simi the Lunatic
Level 58
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Since all 101st current line-up is Outlaws and Plat (if I am correct) arranged all the things for 101st participation in CL8, Platinum should be the one saying to CL leaders who does replacement games in my opinion.
Clan League 8 Group B - Retirement: 7/25/2016 04:26:26


Dr. Stupid 
Level 57
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So the outlaws will determine which replacement players will play for the 101st team because when clan league is finished, they might be given their spot?

If this goes down, this would be the first time a clan league group spot would be given away mid-season. As a long-time admirer of clan league, I admit that I am very interested to see how this decision goes.
Clan League 8 Group B - Retirement: 7/25/2016 04:31:32


kynte
Level 51
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Moreover, are there restrictions on whom the replacements can be? Players who would've been eligible to compete for {101st} at the time of the roster deadline?

It seems like there will be multiple precedents set by this decision.
Clan League 8 Group B - Retirement: 7/25/2016 06:40:45

PJ017 
Level 60
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I think it should be someone that is already on their current roster that played in 1 or 2 events so far.
Clan League 8 Group B - Retirement: 7/25/2016 07:10:06


kynte
Level 51
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Would certainly be smart of Platinum to go that route and let CL sidestep the big 101st vs. Outlaws decision until after the season is over.
Clan League 8 Group B - Retirement: 7/25/2016 07:17:03


LeQuébécois_Benoit
Level 60
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I think PJ017 is right on track. All the present CL8 101st roster is now in Outlaws. It is so because let's face it, the guys of Outlaws that were in 101st before were selected based on the fact that they would give the best chances to 101st to succeed. It doesn't make sense that we would now give the replacement games to guys that are still in 101st; they did not get selected to represent 101st before because the people making the decisions back then for the CL8 101st roster felt that theses guys had less skills than the others that made the cut.

As far as CL9 goes, I think the managers of CL9 should consider that ALL the guys that played for 101st in CL8 are now in Outlaws. I don't know what exactly what it implies, but it should be considered. It is not like if there would have been only 1 to 4 guys of the actual 101st line-up that would have moved to an other clan during CL8; it is ALL the roster that have moved.

Edited 7/25/2016 07:18:11
Clan League 8 Group B - Retirement: 7/25/2016 07:32:02


TeamGuns 
Level 58
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I'd say that this is indeed a very weird situation. But here's what I think, Plat is the lineup leader, and owtlaws has more ressources than 101st atm, we have the players needed for a replacement. Then I think plat should decide who to put in there, maybe considering 101st players as well?

Anyways, it doesn't matter who gets the CL9 spot atm, it's in the best interest of both clans that we get promoted here. We'll figure out what to do with the spot after the season, there's no need to think about this yet.
Clan League 8 Group B - Retirement: 7/25/2016 07:54:44


LeQuébécois_Benoit
Level 60
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This situation clearly shows that there are some things wrong with the P/R system and that a CLOT could resolve much issues. New clans are being put in low divisions to force to prove they are worthy of being in higher divisions (like 7 Heaven, NWO and ACME in division E), when they could already be competitive in higher divisions like D or C (in my opinion).

Regarding what I have said "managers of CL9 should consider that ALL the guys that played for 101st in CL8 are now in Outlaws", it doesn't mean that I think 101st's spot should be taken by Outlaws, it means that Outlaws shouldn't be forced to start in Division E (imo) and that 101st should probably keep their spot in Division B no matter what happens.

Edited 7/25/2016 07:59:25
Clan League 8 Group B - Retirement: 7/25/2016 07:59:37


knyte 
Level 58
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a CLOT could resolve much issues


Just in case you aren't aware (I can't tell), a CLOT is currently what's planned for CL9.
Clan League 8 Group B - Retirement: 7/25/2016 16:25:53


Platinum
Level 58
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On the subject of replacements, I believe myself and the leader of 101st which is Forgotten Knight must agree on what players we want to replace Jinxed on Battle Islands and Guiroma, If there is a strong disagreement between the both of us of what replacement players we should use, I think there should be no replacement games at all as this is a issue which will be discussed after CL8 heading onto CL9.

Though, It should be a shared interest of both 101st and Outlaws to have the best possible team to help getting promoted to A (which is what my roster was aiming up for) so we can have the best possible spot for next season where the issue of who gets that spot can be decided then and there so that clan can continue that spots progress in A/B next season.

I'm currently engaged with 101st leaders + advisors and I'm eager to find a agreement on what shouldn't be a huge issue which doesn't need to be discussed yet.
Clan League 8 Group B - Retirement: 7/25/2016 16:29:33


knyte 
Level 58
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Well, that ends all the speculation on my part about what would happen. :P Gosh, Plat, you ruined the fun of getting way ahead of ourselves.
Clan League 8 Group B - Retirement: 7/25/2016 21:08:58


Benjamin628 
Level 59
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I think it should be up to the players of 101st
Clan League 8 Group B - Retirement: 7/25/2016 22:00:30

Mike
Level 57
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A clan that splits cant have both sub clans in high divisions, otherwise just make a high division full of subs from one clan that has splitted a previous season. You see what i mean ?

Moreover the split can be hostile not friendly, yet the rule must stand for any case.

Outlaws dont have to retire from CL yet (it's like a guy who joined another clan during CL, there's no rule excluding him from it for that reason). If they choose to do however, 101 players should be replaced by 101 players and then play next season wherever they stand.

Outlaws should start from the bottom.

Thats my 2c and how I see it making sense.

Edited 7/25/2016 22:01:07
Clan League 8 Group B - Retirement: 7/25/2016 22:40:41


Dogberry
Level 54
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From my perspective, the whole point of any P/R league has nothing to do with rewarding excellence and everything to do with rewarding prolonged excellence. The fact that new clams enter at the bottom is not a flaw. It is deliberate because the system is designed to reward persistence and sustained success.

Changing CL from P/R to CLOT is fine, but it represents a distinct philosophical shift in what Clam League is trying to be.


If CL were to remain P/R, the question that would need to be resolved before the 9th season is who controls the actual identity of the 101st clam that competed in CL8 - the ones who control the clam, the players who competed for the clam, or neither.

The possibility that the split created two new clams, and that neither clam has an incontrovertible claim to the prior clam's identity should not be completely overlooked.
Clan League 8 Group B - Retirement: 7/25/2016 23:22:19


Onoma94
Level 59
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From my perspective, the whole point of any P/R league has nothing to do with rewarding excellence and everything to do with rewarding prolonged excellence. The fact that new clams enter at the bottom is not a flaw. It is deliberate because the system is designed to reward persistence and sustained success.


Yes, but thing is that it is a really slow system (currently each season takes not even half a year, but 8-9 months!) while clans change a lot between seasons. With 7 divisions currently, a clan that belongs to top two divisions skill-wise, will now need to stay the same for 4 years. Who knows if Warlight will even exist by then...

Changing CL from P/R to CLOT is fine, but it represents a distinct philosophical shift in what Clam League is trying to be.


I don't agree with this. Purpose of Clan League was always to see which clan is the best. With P/R system moving so slow it becomes worse measure with each season. CLOT solves this and dilemmas that are created by radical shifts like these below.

If CL were to remain P/R, the question that would need to be resolved before the 9th season is who controls the actual identity of the 101st clam that competed in CL8 - the ones who control the clam, the players who competed for the clam, or neither.


That's not first case like that in history of Clan League.
CPU dissolved, XCD and BIA created in its place -> BIA got CPU's slot in division A, XCD treated as new clan. XCD went as far as division B, BIA remained in B until CL8
Lynx splitting from 101st (while containing all of 101st's representation previous season) -> Lynx treated as new clan, 101st destroyed and winding down from div A to div C in no time
XS rebranded, whole CL team creating ONE! -> ONE! got the div B spot, XS didn't compete
Acme Co. created mostly out of LEA (containing 7/9 of CL team) -> LEA remaining in C and getting destroyed; Acme as a new clan

Honestly, I would be surprised if this went like Lynx/101st or Acme/LEA, rather than XS/ONE. It's more interesting to see competition between similarly highly skilled clans rather than one-sided noob-bashing in lower divisions.

Edited 7/25/2016 23:23:11
Clan League 8 Group B - Retirement: 7/25/2016 23:47:08


OxTheAutist 
Level 58
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Clan League 8 Group B - Retirement: 7/26/2016 04:08:03


Metatron
Level 55
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Well i do see that the reporting date matters in the games to be redone.

I think that if a player is deemed to be retired, all the games he was booted in because he retired should be redone.

The lack of 101st to report it in time, should not effect the other teams.

The way the rules are it seems that not only 101st will be punished but even the clans that are going to have a rematch.

I think it is only fair that it is established which games he was booted from when he retired and do a rematch of those.

The date of reporting is only relevant to accept the excuse of retirement.

Once the administration accepts it, it should have no value on the games that will be a rematch.

The way it is now some clans will have free points for games they have not played while other will have a rematch.

I do not care what other before you have decided about this issue, it is unfair that the negligence of 101st should result in having other clans be punished too.

The question is:

Are you going to be dogmatic and think that the ones before you created a perfect system or are you going to fix the the issues they missed to the best of your ability?
Clan League 8 Group B - Retirement: 7/26/2016 05:55:50


knyte 
Level 58
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Well, under Rule 6, it's clear that you can only invoke it by declaring (to CL management) that your player is retired- and that it doesn't apply retroactively; only for unplayed games. The only question here was whether it's unplayed games as of the notification date or as of the decision date, and that's been answered pretty clearly.

I agree with you that this rule doesn't work out great in practice and should be reconsidered, but you also can't change the rules in the middle of the season.
Clan League 8 Group B - Retirement: 7/26/2016 14:34:48


Metatron
Level 55
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I never asked to change it in the middle of the season even though i did not know about it when i joined the tournament(like most), but at least change it after for next clan leagues.
Clan League 8 Group B - Retirement: 7/26/2016 15:06:27


TheRiverStyxie 
Level 58
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The lack of 101st to report it in time,


Metatron, where are you getting this from? We reported it as soon as we knew. The date that Jinxed left me a message in skype saying he wasn't going to play anymore. We told the cl panel, the day after as I wasn't online the night he sent the message.


it is unfair that the negligence of 101st should result in having other clans be punished too.


What negligence are you talking about?


Anyway if you have any issues, we'd appreciate it if you took it up with the clan league panel rather than get into debates about it on the forum. I can assure you we (101st) did everything by the book.

Edited 7/26/2016 15:19:05
Clan League 8 Group B - Retirement: 7/26/2016 15:41:32


TBest 
Level 59
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it is unfair that the negligence of 101st should result in having other clans be punished too.

What negligence are you talking about?


That 101st gave "free points" to some clans, but not others. However, I am 100% sure that they did not do so on purpose :p It is just an unfortunate consequence, that frankly, we will have to live with.

(i am not stalking div. B, but I understood it that 101st lost a few games when Jinxed left, but got to redo the others that were in picking stage.)
Clan League 8 Group B - Retirement: 7/26/2016 16:08:07


TheRiverStyxie 
Level 58
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I'm sorry we don't have a crystal ball.. we can't magically know a player has retired until he tells us lol :P

Up until he told us, it was just a couple of boots, which most clans have had anyway.
Clan League 8 Group B - Retirement: 7/26/2016 16:40:26


TeamGuns 
Level 58
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That 101st gave "free points" to some clans, but not others. However, I am 100% sure that they did not do so on purpose :p It is just an unfortunate consequence, that frankly, we will have to live with.


Neh you fool! That's all a part of Platinum's master plan to win the division and also to screw up with Metatron.

Edited 7/26/2016 16:40:48
Clan League 8 Group B - Retirement: 7/26/2016 19:16:33


Metatron
Level 55
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@TheRiverStyxie
"The lack of 101st to report it in time"

"Metatron, where are you getting this from?"
We both know 101st did not report it on time, it is a fact.
That does not mean it is 101st fault in anyway, but it is their responsibility regardless since Jinxed is part of 101st, he represents 101st.

101st is responsible for Jinxed actions during the clan league good or bad since they put him in as their representative player for the league.

"What negligence are you talking about?"
I am not accusing any specific 101st player of negligence except Jinxed, but he does represent 101st thus 101st negligence refers to Jinxed OR whoever reported it late(if such a thing happened).

I do not know the inner dealings of 101st, I did not dare to jump to the conclusion of who reported it late, if it was Jinxed or someone in the clan so I called out the responsible party in general; 101st as a clan.

101st through this instance alone it showed negligence through Jinxed(or otherwise) when it was reported late.

"I can assure you we (101st) did everything by the book."
I believe you but since I cannot be sure 100% I will not jump to any conclusions.

It does not matter whose negligence it was though, if a clan puts a player to represent it in clan league, the clan is responsible for his actions including the action of not playing games he willingly agreed to play.

101st is responsible for Jinxed actions including his negligence, just like it is responsible of winning games and leagues.

This does not mean its 101st fault though, it just means it is responsible for it.

To give you an example, if a child smashes a car with his bike, the parents are responsible for his actions, it is not their fault, but they have to pay for the damage regardless.


"That 101st gave "free points" to some clans, but not others. However, I am 100% sure that they did not do so on purpose :p It is just an unfortunate consequence, that frankly, we will have to live with."

I did not say it was 101st fault, I said it was their negligence (either by reporting it late or Jinxed own negligence representing 101st).

I do believe that 101st did everything they could to follow the rules and I KNOW it is unfair for them to play only the games after the retire was reported.
I KNOW they should play all the booted games or none to have a fair league.

That is what I was asking the administration about, to fix this totally unfair rule.

Also if the administration deems it that the clan must be punished for the late reporting(negligence) they should not be punished with less games since it effects the other clans too, but with reduced points or something that depend on the total games before reporting.
eg getting 1/2 points for the games booted before reporting or something.

Removing the games is the dumbest and most unfair idea I have every heard.

Edited 7/26/2016 19:54:29
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