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Gun Control: Do we (Americans) need it Debate: 7/28/2016 21:32:22


[WOLF] AMERICAN EMPIRE
Level 55
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Do we?

In my opinion, we don't. Why?

The arguments for gun control are 9/10 times because "guns kill", or "we have civilian access to military grade weaponry".

Neither of those statements are true. Guns will NOT fire if they are not loaded, or there is not pressure applied to the trigger. Safeties aren't an excuse to fire or to not fire because it is a mechanical safe guard, and thus prone to failure. The other statement about "Military grade weapons" is not true either. This is due to NO MILITARY GRADE WEAPONS BEING LEGALLY UP FOR SALE. Two factors tie into this. The first is the assault weapon ban of 1986, which states that automatic weapons produced after 1986 CANNOT be legally owned or sold, however pre-ban produced and owned weapons that are automatic can be TRANSFERRED, however not bought or sold by gun stores or by people. The second factor is that these "scary assault weapons" are actually designed for civilian and sport use. Take the AR-15 for example, highly customizaable, 5.56 caliber, and widely available. This rifle was produced by Fairchild Armalite in the 1950's (originally, however MANY companies build and sell them today, around 20 or so. Give or take) as a civilian firearm. There is a military version produced by Colt, however it is a fully and semi automatic variant that is also customizable.

Another bit of information that supports no gun control is how many people are killed yearly by guns.

This is 2016 so far (through June 15th):

Abortion: 501,325
Heart Disease: 282,038
Cancer: 271,640
Tobacco: 160,680
Obesity: 140,939
Medical Errors: 115,439
Lower Respiratory Disease: 65,623
Accident (unintentional): 62,460
Stroke: 61,106
Heart Associated Infection: 45,449
Alcohol: 45,908
Diabetes: 35,114
Alzheimer's Disease: 42,943
Influenza/Pneumonia: 25,354
Kidney Failure: 19,631
Drunk Driving: 15,521
Blood Infection: 15,363
Unintentional Poisoning: 14,580
All Drug Abuse: 11,479
Prescription Drug Overdose: 6,887
GUNS: 5,276

So by this data, if guns should be banned/restricted, so should abortion, tobacco products, modern medicine, cars, alcohol, and excessive eating.

What we need is more people who know what their doing with guns, more people who are aware guns are not a toy, but rather a tool. And people who won't give or sell a gun to someone with any mental disorder. We don't have a gun problem, we have a people problem.

Chime in, I want to kill some false overly liberal points.
Gun Control: Do we (Americans) need it Debate: 7/28/2016 21:36:09


Deutschland
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Yes but countries with less guns have less murders, aside from that conservatives also make stupid arguments like guns dont kill people, people kill people. also guns do more harm then good
Gun Control: Do we (Americans) need it Debate: 7/28/2016 21:37:42


Benjamin628 
Level 59
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Ask Hitler Stalin Mao, they will tell you their opinions on gun control
Gun Control: Do we (Americans) need it Debate: 7/28/2016 21:47:25


[WOLF] AMERICAN EMPIRE
Level 55
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Ask Hitler Stalin Mao, they will tell you their opinions on gun control


Those 3 men are responsible for 90 million deaths minimum, and all 3 had restrictive gun laws.

Yes but countries with less guns have less murders, aside from that conservatives also make stupid arguments like guns dont kill people, people kill people. also guns do more harm then good


That's not entirely accurate, look at the UK. They restricted guns, so yes gun related crime went down, but look at how high their stabbings and stabbing death rates are compared to the US.

Edited 7/28/2016 21:48:45
Gun Control: Do we (Americans) need it Debate: 7/28/2016 21:49:33


Imperator
Level 53
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Yes but countries with less guns have less murders


This is at least somewhat true (although with a LOT of exceptions everywhere), but it leaves out what I feel is a pretty important part of the equation, which is suicide. Suicides have the exact same negative consequences as homicides with the country as a whole losing a person that could be contributing to the country and the family of the victim experiencing the same grief. Since guns are a factor in both homicides and suicides, it's pretty silly to only count homicides.

When you account for suicides and homicides, there's very little difference between America and countries like Finland, Iceland, France, or Canada. Furthermore and probably more importantly, there's very little correlation between lower homicide/suicide rates and less guns as you move down the list of nations with the most guns.

Here is the US compared to other top gun owning nations in terms of guns per 100 people:

http://imgh.us/graph1_1.png

And here are those same nations in that order in terms of their combined suicide/homicide rates:

http://imgh.us/graph_26.png

As you can see, there is basically zero correlation between lower gun ownership and less homicides/suicides, and if anything nations with more guns such as Saudi arabia, Switzerland, and cyprus have far fewer deaths than nations with less guns such as France, Canada, Iceland and finland.

Edited 7/29/2016 00:42:12
Gun Control: Do we (Americans) need it Debate: 7/28/2016 22:00:50


Major General Smedley Butler
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Benjamin, Hitler, Stalin and Mao are death. People that died can't hear us.

Yes they can, ALLAH told me so.
Gun Control: Do we (Americans) need it Debate: 7/28/2016 22:03:55


Belgian Gentleman
Level 55
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Urgh Smedley is acting stupid again!! Can't tell whether it is sarcasm or not
Gun Control: Do we (Americans) need it Debate: 7/28/2016 22:05:43


Leibstandarte (Vengeance)
Level 40
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MGSB, 1416 is a HERETIC. Allah speaks to us but he refuses to believe it!
Gun Control: Do we (Americans) need it Debate: 7/28/2016 22:08:08


Major General Smedley Butler
Level 49
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MGSB, 1416 is a HERETIC. Allah speaks to us but he refuses to believe it!

Yes. He and the Albanian apostate must be brought to the final prophet of ALLAH, DONALD JOHN TRUMP, and be sacrificed as ALLAH has demanded.
Gun Control: Do we (Americans) need it Debate: 7/28/2016 22:29:46


Leibstandarte (Vengeance)
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^ Amin.
Gun Control: Do we (Americans) need it Debate: 7/28/2016 23:06:32


Stewie
Level 51
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Another gun control debate? You 'Muricans are really making a huge deal out of this.

I know all countries are different but you should start looking at how European and other developed countries handle their "gun issues", most civilians don't have any firearms nor have the license to bear one for it.

"But all the criminals have handguns and stuff?" Well, don't let them have one then. If you see thugs hanging around the street with those death bringers then it's a problem with Police not doing it's job properly, changing gun control will do very little for criminals when they are determined to get a gun, legal or otherwise.

"But what about muh security? What if the government tries to kill us?" I hate to break the news to you, but such event is very unlikely to happen and even if it did, you can easily make home-made molotov cocktails, shooting nail guns and even assemble a goddarn flamethrower if you have some basic knowledge of chemistry and physics, you don't necessarily have to buy a firearm to have a killing machine at your disposal. In the very least of such shitty events you could take example from Turkey and hijack an army tank, lol.

Edited 7/28/2016 23:22:19
Gun Control: Do we (Americans) need it Debate: 7/28/2016 23:13:15


Leibstandarte (Vengeance)
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^ American Army wouldn't shoot at civilians. Can you imagine a Texan soldier shooting people at his hometown?
Gun Control: Do we (Americans) need it Debate: 7/28/2016 23:15:13


Stewie
Level 51
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I can imagine a Texan shooting everything at anywhere actually, but I'm just stereotypical :P
Gun Control: Do we (Americans) need it Debate: 7/28/2016 23:53:45


Deutschland
Level 35
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if the army revolted remember its the US fucking army

Edited 7/28/2016 23:53:53
Gun Control: Do we (Americans) need it Debate: 7/28/2016 23:54:28


Deutschland
Level 35
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stewie there purging every body now politicions still want to live there
Gun Control: Do we (Americans) need it Debate: 7/29/2016 00:08:38


Zephyrum 
Level 60
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Yes but countries with less guns have less murders, aside from that conservatives also make stupid arguments like guns dont kill people, people kill people. also guns do more harm then good


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_firearms_and_ammunition_referendum,_2005

^ After the results were in, gun control was increased anyway in here.

And this is what happened:

http://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2016/03/28/472157969/brazil-has-nearly-60-000-murders-and-it-may-relax-gun-laws



Gun Control: Do we (Americans) need it Debate: 7/29/2016 00:32:41


Paugers
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^
Links Wikipedia as a source
Gun Control: Do we (Americans) need it Debate: 7/29/2016 00:32:56


OxTheAutist 
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That's not entirely accurate, look at the UK. They restricted guns, so yes gun related crime went down, but look at how high their stabbings and stabbing death rates are compared to the US.

Doesn't matter. When the US has double the homicide rate of the most murderous part of the UK (Scotland ofc), and almost 6 times the homicide rate of the most peaceful part of the UK (Wales), you know there's a problem.

Gun Control: Do we (Americans) need it Debate: 7/29/2016 00:34:38


OxTheAutist 
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But, guess who is improving and guess who is getting worse hmmm? :p



Gun Control: Do we (Americans) need it Debate: 7/29/2016 00:58:39


TeamGuns 
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Pfff another gun control debate. That's uterly useless, pro-gun ppl will claim that guns arent evil and show you graphs that proove their point ignoring a huge ammount of other factors, and anti-gun will do somewhat the same thing but reverse.


1) It's impossible to get rid of all guns, basic supply and demand laws will always force them to exist in our society.

2) It is however possible to limit gun violence with laws ensuring that guns aren't sold like candy, and mostly limit the spread of military grade assault weapons.

3) Arming the population isnt the solution for the raise of gun related problems. It's quite often the opposite and banal things like a bar fight can end with much worse ends than it should have.

4) Taking stands like "let's ban all guns" or "if they were armed" after mass shootings are uterly improductive and ugly to watch. I believe that no action should be taken out of hot blood, be it for guns or any other thing.

5) Believing government conspiracies to take out your guns because a multi millionnaire lobby or a News Channel told you is not only stupid in regards of trusting people that obviously don't have your best interests in mind but also pathetic.


Accepting these would probably not solve the hole gun problem, but it's already a fucking start.

Edited 7/29/2016 00:59:24
Gun Control: Do we (Americans) need it Debate: 7/29/2016 01:13:42


GeneralPE
Level 56
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holy shit. This is the second time today I have said this, but +1 anonym. Even if your argument for guns is so you can use one on the infidel, I still agree
Gun Control: Do we (Americans) need it Debate: 7/29/2016 01:15:09


Eklipse {TJC}
Level 56
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5) Believing government conspiracies to take out your guns because a multi millionnaire lobby or a News Channel told you

HISTORY has told us. Disarming the general population is always one of the top priorities of tyrants. I'll concede there are benevolent reasons for wanting disarmament, but how can you really know whether a government's endgame is benevolent or not?
Gun Control: Do we (Americans) need it Debate: 7/29/2016 01:34:21


Leibstandarte (Vengeance)
Level 40
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+1 Anonym and i agree with General PE, i don't want this good goy anonym, bring me back the quran spammer jihadist!
Gun Control: Do we (Americans) need it Debate: 7/29/2016 02:19:18


Imperator
Level 53
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Pfff another gun control debate. That's uterly useless, pro-gun ppl will claim that guns arent evil and show you graphs that proove their point ignoring a huge ammount of other factors, and anti-gun will do somewhat the same thing but reverse.


Sure, and then we have condescending anti-gun people who list out a bunch of their absurd opinions with the assumption that they are somehow true and nobody could possibly have anything to say about them (and even if they do, they're just "pro-gun people who ignore a whole bunch of facts").
Gun Control: Do we (Americans) need it Debate: 7/29/2016 02:50:11


Жұқтыру
Level 55
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I believe that no action should be taken out of hot blood, be it for guns or any other thing.


+5

HISTORY has told us. Disarming the general population is always one of the top priorities of tyrants. I'll concede there are benevolent reasons for wanting disarmament, but how can you really know whether a government's endgame is benevolent or not?


War and killings by governments kills roughly 50k folk each year. Murders kill 500k each year. If there's a way to lower common kill rates, at the cost of greatening government killrates, do it. Some governments known to be oppressive.

China (civilian gun ownership near-banned; heavily regulated): civilian kills (~12k) 6x higher than government kills (~2k at a high estimate)

Iran (civilian gun ownership regulated): civilian kills (~3000) 2x higher than govenrment kills (~1.5k at high estimate)

Arabia (civilian gun ownership regulated): civilian kills (~200) 2x higher than government kills (~100).

Meantime in Japan or Norway, government executions are fully ended. So even by the most free estimates, it's still worth it to curb civilian killings - that is, if possible (the main problem with gun regulation).

Sure, and then we have condescending anti-gun people who list out a bunch of their absurd opinions with the assumption that they are somehow true and nobody could possibly have anything to say about them (and even if they do, they're just "pro-gun people who ignore a whole bunch of facts").


Please don't be so hostile.
Gun Control: Do we (Americans) need it Debate: 7/29/2016 03:04:13


Imperator
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Please don't be so hostile.


I mean there's not really too much hostility here. The strongest words I used were "Condescending" and "absurd", which honestly are pretty weak terms to describe the content and tone of his post (I can think of a few dozen stronger words which would probably get me banned if I used them).

If there's a way to lower common kill rates, at the cost of greatening government killrates, do it.


I'm not sure if you're advocating for strict gun laws here or for capital punishment, but if it's the former I think it's worth mentioning that Saudi arabia actually has one of the highest gun ownership rates in the world, despite any sort of gun laws they may have.
Gun Control: Do we (Americans) need it Debate: 7/29/2016 03:10:55


Major General Smedley Butler
Level 49
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http://infobeautiful3.s3.amazonaws.com/2013/03/iib_death_wellcome_collection_fullsize.png

303M killed by government (it had genocide under murder, so I'm removing that and suicide)

58M killed by murder

Note: The estimates for losses to government are fairly conservative in this graphic.

Edited 7/29/2016 03:31:03
Gun Control: Do we (Americans) need it Debate: 7/29/2016 03:25:25


Leibstandarte (Vengeance)
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Gun Control: Do we (Americans) need it Debate: 7/29/2016 03:44:35


Zenvue
Level 54
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There isnt a way to keep guns away from bad people entirely but I think keeping them away from the bad as much as we can is worth doing.

People with certain mental issues : No Gun

Criminal History : No Gun

Edited 7/29/2016 03:51:48
Gun Control: Do we (Americans) need it Debate: 7/29/2016 03:57:46


Жұқтыру
Level 55
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The strongest words I used were "Condescending" and "absurd", which honestly are pretty weak terms


TeamGuns was saying that another gun controle debate is going to get nowhere, and even if not, there's no grounds for you to be rude, anyway.

Also, to that chart: this isn't 1914 nor 1937 (in which guns were less regulated) In the 2000s, it has roughly stayed at 50k to 100k killed by war each year, while 500k to 700k killed by murder each year (despite almost the whole world having gun regulation of some kind - including America).
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