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Clan League 9 format + Livestream: 9/2/2016 01:38:13

Master of the Dead 
Level 62
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The current group (A to E) structure does not scale as the Clan League grows in size every season and new clans sign up. It can take up to 5 seasons(2+ years) just to get up to Group A. This leads to imbalanced groups at the bottom when a new clan with a lot of quality signs up. To solve this problem, we have designed a new format. In this format, a new clan can win the clan league in 3 seasons! The idea has been pitched to different people and undergone revisions. If you've seen this before, look closely as there maybe subtle changes. If you find a major flaw in the format, we're open to discussing fixes.


Example with detailed explanation : http://goo.gl/xHxb70


Livestream
We're planning on doing a twitch stream this weekend where we go over all of this in detail and answer questions. If you cannot make it, please post your questions below and we will try to cover as many of them as possible.

Twitch : https://www.twitch.tv/master_of_the_dead
Time   : http://goo.gl/ongf6R



CL9 Format
  • Group A and B
    The top two groups A and B remain unchanged. The clans relegated from Group B will go into the Qualifier Pot instead of the old Group C.

  • Qualifiers
    Instead of the old Groups C,D,E we will have a qualifier pot. Qualifiers are divided into two stages.

    • Stage 1
      All clans will be split up into 4 groups. The number of clans in each group can fluctuate based on the clans participating. If the group size gets out of hand, we can consider other options for this stage. In this stage, clans in each group will play three 1v1, one 2v2 and one 3v3 tournament each. These tournaments will be RR format. The point system will remain the same, i.e 3 points for a 1v1 win, 4 points for 2v2, 5 points for 3v3. The top 2 clans in each group with the max points will progress onto Stage 2.

    • Stage 2
      8 clans from Stage 1(top 2 from each group) will play three 1v1, two 2v2 and one 3v3 tournament each. These tournaments will be RR format. The point system will remain the same, i.e 3 points for a 1v1 win, 4 points for 2v2, 5 points for 3v3. The top 2 clans with max points will promote to Group B



CLOT
  • I'm currently working on a CLOT. If ready, CL9 will not use WL tournaments to create games. Instead the CLOT will handle the creation of games. The algorithm used to create games may be a bit different from regular WL tournaments.
  • This CLOT depends on a feature which should be made available in Fizzer's next update. If that feature is not added, the CLOT cannot support vacations(which is a major deal-breaker).
  • Scorekeeping will be handled by the CLOT and the spreadsheet will be updated with the results every 3 hours. We still need scorekeepers for every division to provide regular commentary on the WL forums. If you would like to provide those, please reach out to us.
  • If a player is assigned to play on a template, he/she must be able to create a game on that template(i.e, unlock all features of that template). This is a restriction of using CLOTs. If this affects you significantly, feel free to UserVoice a feature request to remove this restriction.
  • All games will be created by a Warlight account named ClanLeagueBot. Do not blacklist this bot as it will not be able to invite you to games. If a player does not join in three days or declines the game, the game will be counted as a loss and deleted by the bot. It cannot auto-join you, so make sure to join your games on time. If you vote to end a game, the winner will be assigned randomly.




Seeds
  • Only the top 2 clans from Stage 2 will promote to Group B every season. To keep all the other clans motivated, we plan to introduce seeds. Seeding will be used in the next season to determine the groups in Stage 1
  • The current standing of clans will be used to determine the seeds in CL9. 6th, 7th in B are 1st, 2nd seeds; 3rd,4th,5th in C are 3rd,4th,5th seeds; 1st,2nd in D are 6th,7th seeds; 6th in C is 8th seed(assuming no drop-outs). In CL10, the two clans from B and the Stage 2 rankings will determine the seeds. If there are drop-outs, there may not be 8 seeds(which is fine).


Stage 1 Groups
  • Groups in Stage 1 will be drawn on a livestream before the start of the season. 1st and 8th seed will be placed in Group 1, 2nd and 7th seed in Group 2, 3rd and 6th in Group 3 and 4th and 5th in Group 4.
  • All the unseeded clans will be drawn into the groups using a random generator.


Templates
  • The number of tournaments played over the two stages are the same as those played by Groups A and B. The templates for each Stage will be picked randomly from those used in the top 2 groups.
  • If a player is assigned to a template, he/she must be able to create a game on that template(i.e, unlock all features of that template). This is a restriction of using CLOTs. If this affects you significantly, feel free to UserVoice a feature request to remove this restriction.


Line-up
  • Every clan must submit a lineup to fill all their slots(six 1v1, 2 * three 2v2, 3 * two 3v3). In total there are 18 slots per clan. A player can be put in a maximum of 3 slots. Any player listed in a clan's line-up must be a member of that clan on the date of the submission deadline.


Roster
  • In addition to the lineup, every clan can submit a roster of up to 10 additional players. Any player present in a clan's roster must also be a member of that clan on the date of the submission deadline. Alts are not permitted in the roster/line-up. If a player with accounts in 2 clans is enlisted by both clans, they will be removed from both clans' rosters. The player can clarify with the CL panel who they wish to play for.
  • In the event of a substitution, a clan can only pick a player from their line-up or their roster.


Substitution
  • If the CLOT is ready in time for CL9, substitutions will be possible. If not ready, there will be no substitutions in CL9.
  • Every clan can replace 6 slots(out of 18) over the course of the season. The grounds for the substitution can be retirements, poor performance, left clan etc. If player represents 3 slots, they can be partially replaced and continue to play some of the slots as well. If a clan has used up 6 substitutions over the season, it cannot make any further ones regardless of the circumstances.
  • In the event of a substitution, the on-going games for the retired player will not be remade. Only games which have not been created will be allotted to the substitute. A substitution can be carried out by the CL panel or your division scorekeeper. We will guarantee the substitution within a maximum of 3 days. Any new games created within this 3 day period for the retired player may be forfeit as well.


Clan Leaders
  • Every clan must submit a primary and secondary point of contact. We will send a notification to both for deadlines regarding roster/line-ups. If we do not receive a full roster on time, the clan is removed from the league and the next clan is bumped up.
  • Any substitution requests should be made only by clan leaders on the designated forum thread. Do not send PMs. Communication on the forum serves as notification for everyone. If no one has responded to a substitution request in 3 days, please reach out to the CL panel.
- downvoted post by [FEL]Chatul
Clan League 9 format + Livestream: 9/2/2016 01:50:29


Cata Cauda
Level 57
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^
That might turn out to be difficult, considering Felidae is an alt clan.
- downvoted post by [FEL]Chatul
Clan League 9 format + Livestream: 9/2/2016 01:58:51


Cata Cauda
Level 57
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^
Not talking about performance, but rather about the alt rule. I am not sure how many of your motivated players are already participating for other clans already.
- downvoted post by [FEL]Chatul
Clan League 9 format + Livestream: 9/2/2016 03:08:24


❤HankyPinky
Level 57
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@Master of the Dead: Are you perchance looking for help commentating/answering questions/keeping up with the chat in that stream? If so, I would love to help you out. :)
Clan League 9 format + Livestream: 9/2/2016 03:14:00


TBest 
Level 59
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Forum spamming " The panel reserves the right to ban any player for a season for excessive spamming on the CL forum threads. Harassing the panel will result in a ban as well(You will be warned once). Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but please express it in a respectful manner.



Regarding
"If a player is assigned to a template, he/she must be able to create a game on that template(i.e, unlock all features of that template). This is a restriction of using CLOTs. If this affects you significantly, feel free to UserVoice a feature request to remove this restriction.
"


Are you allowed to borrow accounts? That is using the alt of someone else, who has high level/Membership. And... then two players know the login info. AKA, you can't know if they are cheating.

Also, since CLOT requires you to have unlocked the feature. what happens if one player suddenly looses access (m. expiring)?

Can you have players on the roster, that are not taking Slots? (aka, backup players for interments)

Edited 9/2/2016 03:22:15
Clan League 9 format + Livestream: 9/2/2016 06:05:02


Great Expanse 
Level 59
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In addition to the lineup, every clan can submit a roster of up to 10 additional players. Any player present in a clan's roster must also be a member of that clan on the date of the submission deadline.

So these 10 additional players, are they the players that are not included in the submitted lineup at all? Because these 10 players are used for substitutions (I assume), can players already in the lineup be used for substitutions that are not on the list? I don't think I'm am understanding the point of the list.
Clan League 9 format + Livestream: 9/2/2016 07:04:35


Green Turtle 
Level 61
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Regarding the seeds in stage one, I am thinking about "negative seeds": the least competitive teams. I wonder if it's also necessary to separate them into different groups. The purpose is to avoid the situation that two bottom teams end up in a same group, which gives free passes to the other two teams in that group.

If the distribution of team skills are a negatively skewed (very likely, if you look at CL8), the difficulty of a group will depend more on the number of weak teams than on the number of strong teams. In that scenario, it seems that negative seeds are more relevant than regular seeds.

Edited 9/2/2016 07:05:57
Clan League 9 format + Livestream: 9/2/2016 14:03:44


Beren • apex 
Level 62
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Can you have players on the roster, that are not taking Slots? (aka, backup players for interments)


The roster is the list of all players that you might potentially use as substitutes. If a player isn't on the roster, he can't be used as a substitute, but he won't take up a slot until you actually use him.
Clan League 9 format + Livestream: 9/2/2016 15:37:17

rakleader
Level 61
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Regarding the Qualifier Group, will the qualification be decided with the points from Stage1+Stage2, or only with the points from Stage2?

Also, will there be games organized during Stage2, for the clans that don't make the cut? For example, will a group be created with the 3rd and 4th clan of each Stage1 group? Another with the 5th and 6th clans?
Clan League 9 format + Livestream: 9/2/2016 15:38:21


Great Expanse 
Level 59
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Just so I understand this, it seems like I want to clarify the definitions of some things:

Roster: All players can be used as substitutes.

Line-up: The assigned players to specific templates.

Now, I have a scenario. Green Turtle is playing 2v2 Final Earth in CL9. I need to substitute Green Turtle for a player on 2v2 China. Because Green Turtle is on the clan's lineup, do I need to put Green Turtle on the roster list of 10 players for him to substitute for 2v2 China?

Edited 9/2/2016 15:39:03
Clan League 9 format + Livestream: 9/2/2016 22:30:18

Cid Highwind
Level 56
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Question on roster/lineup: What about smaller clans such as 7th, who only have 9 total players (we might grow a little bigger by the time CL9 begins, but atm, that's how many we can possibly field if everyone is available to play the entire season)? Seems like having the lineups being that big might penalize us, if say, 1 or 2 of the people on our roster can't play CL 9...
Clan League 9 format + Livestream: 9/2/2016 23:02:20

awesomeusername
Level 58
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No seeds for Division E? There are some decently strong clans in there, probably stronger than whoever gets last in C. Come to think of it, the fairest solution is probably some sort of full seeding, but that would take the fun out of the random draw, wouldn't it? :P No matter what, I think, there will always be stronger and weaker qualifying groups.

Overall, I definitely consider the new system an improvement, thanks!
Clan League 9 format + Livestream: 9/3/2016 00:19:37

Jaymer
Level 56
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Interesting. So if I understand right, clans in the qualifier pot will have to decide whether to put their best players only in Stage 2 (and risk not even making it to Stage 2) or put some of them in Stage 1 and some in Stage 2 (and risk doing really well in Stage 1 and then losing Stage 2).

Also, the organizers and clan leaders will have to be really careful to make sure the players know in advance when games will be created. Otherwise someone might go on vacation right before the game is made and not join within 3 days.
Clan League 9 format + Livestream: 9/3/2016 02:01:41


Great Expanse 
Level 59
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@Jaymer, when making a CL lineup I've never felt like I need to hold back where to put players. The best player is in each slot.

Also, what is Jaymer referring to failing to join in 3 days if on vacation?
Clan League 9 format + Livestream: 9/3/2016 02:19:15


Beren • apex 
Level 62
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@Jaymer, the CLoT will be able to tell if a player who hasn't joined in 3 days hasn't joined due to a vacation. So that won't be a problem.
Clan League 9 format + Livestream: 9/3/2016 04:09:37


knyte 
Level 58
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Is the not-yet-implemented feature you're talking about just vacation detection? If so, you should be able to (reliably, automatically, inexpensively) do that outside the public API endpoints already without violating the Terms of Service.
Clan League 9 format + Livestream: 9/3/2016 04:23:59


TBest 
Level 59
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Knyte, I am happy to say the WL's most recent update added Vacations to the API :)
Clan League 9 format + Livestream: 9/3/2016 06:38:10


Simi the Lunatic
Level 59
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Theses changes are very promising! I just hope that stage 1 will not drag for too long before stage 2 begins. I also hope that the new good clans (Apprentices, Outlaws if not in division B, etc.) that will participate will be evenly distributed amongst the groups of stage 1 to prevent the formation of a very overpowered group. Imagine something like Apprentices, Outlaws, 7th Heaven and Hydra all in the same group of stage 1...This situation could very well happen as the new clans will be randomly distributed.

Edited 9/3/2016 06:40:45
Clan League 9 format + Livestream: 9/3/2016 19:38:24

Memele 
Level 60
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1) The max 3 games each player applies to stage 1 and stage 2 at the same time?
If the rule applies to both stages at the same time it can be against the top-clans of the qualifiers, because they need to save some top players for stage 2 (they are aiming for that) and mid-level clans can go all out...
Maybe a solution could be to add a slot to each player in stage 1 if their clan passes to stage 2 (i.e. 4 games in total, but only can play a maximum of 3 in either stage)

2) Rosters additions (10) are a bit to much in my opinion.

3) All players should be members of a clan before the deadline. I agree with that but I think it should be more restrictive later. If a players changes clans he or she must be substituted (if you don't have more substitutions available, all the games from that player are lost). This season a lot of clans have a lot of players from other clans, for example, in divB there are a lot of clan A players...and that's pretty unfair (in fact, the only ones who uses divB players are at the bottom of that division...).
Clan League 9 format + Livestream: 9/4/2016 15:57:11


wakanarai 
Level 58
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I feel like line-ups need to be send in before the stage 1 drawings will be taking place in where the groups for stage 1 will be decided as well as the 6 templates they will be playing during stage 1.

stage 2 will be using the 7 templates that weren't part of stage 1 with the players they originally had in their line-up for those templates keeping the 3 tournaments a player in mind.
Clan League 9 format + Livestream: 9/4/2016 18:49:13


Great Expanse 
Level 59
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Clan League 9 Seeding:


The current system for Season 9 involves seeding the two clans relegating from Division B and the clans in Division C, relegating from Division C and promoting from Division D; 8 clans in total this season and going forward. All clans below in Divisions D and E would be unseeded and randomized into groups 1-4 during a livestream. In future seasons, only those clans that end up in Stage 2 would be seeded with all stage 1 clans be randomized into groups the subsequent season.

As much as that is entertaining for clans not in Divisions D and E or the staged part of Clan League, unseeded and seeded clans are subjected to massive amounts of uncertainty which isn't 'fun' for anyone actually playing in that part of Clan League.

What I propose is increasing the seeding process to all clans that are currently participating in Clan League. New clans would be unranked and randomized, but in relation to the number of participating clans, it would be but a fraction of those in the staged format.

Here is a mock seeding process going into season 9 from fake results of this season and how seeding would work doing into season 10:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nwo6gWwooVDsLDlr6lxT0OMxcPmvuTRcgcpEM0v4_ZY/edit#gid=693234780

Pros: Its more predictable and clans are aware of their groups in advance. Clans not in the top 8 have their performance factored into which group they end up in. Should leave to even groups.
Cons: For season 9, stage 1 groups are quite wonky as the P/R league groups really are messed up and translate poorly the first season of implementation (I'm looking at Group 4 season 9).

So, I talked to Beren and MotD about this on the livestream and they said they would want to ask all the clans which system they would prefer:

Randomized Groups or Ranked Seeding.

Thoughts?

Edited 9/4/2016 22:14:54
Clan League 9 format + Livestream: 9/4/2016 23:59:14

Mike
Level 58
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I think the current system is better. At least it's fair as paths to groups B and A (and to first place of group A) are down to performance only and everyone understands it. Only problem is long seasons and summer play. Why not reducing amount of games ? Way to do it is less Clans in divisions, with more divisions to compensate. 5 clans per group, 2 promote, 2 go down, 1 stay. Every season there's movement, something is happening to every clan which is exciting. Of course way from lowest Division G to division A is long but each season would last 2 months tops, which is also easier for players to bear. Over a year (without break), a successful clan could move up all 6 Divisions.

Another wish would be that a player can not play in more than 1 tourney, so that a clan can not benefit from 1 strong player. An exception could be granted to clans of small size.
Clan League 9 format + Livestream: 9/5/2016 02:03:49

Wick 
Level 51
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A small suggestion: consider to set up 1v1's as team games so that the team chat may be used as private notes for that player.
Clan League 9 format + Livestream: 9/5/2016 03:14:28

Master of the Dead 
Level 62
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A small suggestion: consider to set up 1v1's as team games so that the team chat may be used as private notes for that player.


Yep.. Taken care of already :)

Edited 9/5/2016 03:16:28
Clan League 9 format + Livestream: 9/5/2016 03:25:25

[wolf]japan77
Level 57
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Another wish would be that a player can not play in more than 1 tourney, so that a clan can not benefit from 1 strong player. An exception could be granted to clans of small size.


I don't this will work well. TLW would probably have to drop out of CL if this were implemented, we simply don't have enough people willing to play strat. Note: I am not even talking about skill here. Also, we would have to play people with sub-1k ratings, which is unheard of.
Clan League 9 format + Livestream: 9/5/2016 08:31:41


indibob 
Level 60
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hate to be a dissenting voice but it seems to me that this whole shake-up is rather counter productive.

Seems the main criticism of the current setup is the possibility of uneven divisions due to new clans entering at the bottom.

Having seen your own example of how the groups may be seeded though it looks extemely uncompetitive throughout.
The great enjoyment of playing in a division set-up is that as much as possible each clan will be competitive. It seems that this is not a priority now?

From the examples given, some teams would be expected to finish on 0 points!!
Where is the incentive for clans like RP to even enter if they are likely to be in the same division as clans like Outlaws & King Kong?

It's basically taking the competitiveness out of the league from what i see

Was it not feasible just to have the panel reach an agreement on the expected strngth of the new clans and slot them into the relevant division even if that meant having an extra team in that division for a season?

Edited 9/5/2016 09:06:07
Clan League 9 format + Livestream: 9/5/2016 11:11:25


wakanarai 
Level 58
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Right now you basically have the tier 1 clans in A and then the tier 2 clans on top of B but from tier 3 onwards all of them are split between B-E right now in some way and they basically have to be split with 2-3 spots in B and the others in C and then it becomes a matter of opinions that clash for where a new clan needs to be placed.

If we take the current score then 101st and Blitz will be promoting to A but imo the current 101st line-up basically all left 101st and most went to Outlaws so if you look at it that way then you should have 101st staying in A and then Outlaws joining A as well since it's a new clan with mostly the old 101st line-up?

I really don't see that working after all. I think the current solution would be the best for example if a clan like [20] wants to join back in they don't have to start in E or F by then but go into the stage 1 pool and then win there and in stage 2 as well so they get into division B on their 2nd season and in the 3rd season they are back in the place they should belong.

I know for the lower ranked clans it might not be the best option but right now with the size becoming so huge it would take ages to promote to the higher Divisions.

Another example i want to pull out is the Strat MME promo/rele league run by pushover right now i think. He is using super-promotions just to make you go through the divisions faster since the lowest division is like J or so by now so if he didn't it would take like 10 seasons for the best players to get into the correct division and maybe they get into a Group of death on the way there which even prevents them from going faster through the divisions. 1 season in there takes over 3 months on average as well i think so you would be playing 2 and a half years before you have even a change on getting the title as best on that template in league format.
Posts 1 - 30 of 54   1  2  Next >>   

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