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Evolution vs Creationism Thread: 9/25/2016 01:13:30

[FEL]Chatul
Level 22
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This is the thread for evolution vs creationism debates.
I will stand in the middle and help moderate the thread by calls for upvotes/downvotes of bad posts.

Rules:
1.Write your argument in a logical way.
2.Do not appeal to emotions.
3.Do not use ad hominem.
4.Do not mock the other side. Only reasoning is acceptable.

What we do not want:
1.Ad hominem. Whether someone (especially your opponent!) is Jewish, Christian, Muslim, atheist, etc is irrelevant. We are not interested in you. Instead we are only interested in objective facts and reasoning.
2.Do not mock religion. It is fine if you do not believe or even disbelieve in a religion. However there is no need to mock one.
3.Do not appeal to emotions, tradition, fashion, popularity and other factors that have nothing to do with the subject.

Good sources on both sides:

Evolution:
TalkOrigins

Young Earth Creationism:
Creation.com
Institute of Creation Research (ICR)
Answers in Genesis

Edited 9/25/2016 01:19:08
Evolution vs Creationism Thread: 9/25/2016 01:20:43

[FEL]Chatul
Level 22
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I will openly call for downvoting and upvoting of certain comments here in this post to moderate this thread.

Trolls in general and {{{Karl}}} in particular are likely to infest almost every thread in OT (such as flaming against Jews, Slavs, "cat autists" etc regardless of the topic) so I'm prepared for such trolling.

Posts 3-7 should be hidden.
Post 15 should be upvoted.

Edited 9/25/2016 05:16:15
- downvoted post by BUFFALO
- downvoted post by Spenglerian Traditionalist
- downvoted post by Major General Smedley Butler
Evolution vs Creationism Thread: 9/25/2016 03:20:29


Жұқтыру
Level 55
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upside down though (like Saint Peter)
Evolution vs Creationism Thread: 9/25/2016 03:28:10

wct
Level 56
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I don't think you'll be able to find anyone able to argue for creationism who's mature enough to stick to your rules, Chatul. But I'll upvote your thread anyway, on principle.
Evolution vs Creationism Thread: 9/25/2016 03:30:49

[FEL]Chatul
Level 22
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^There may be some.:-) I mean professional creationists certainly can do that but not sure about WL creationists. We also need to make sure that angry atheism with no reasoning is not allowed either.
Evolution vs Creationism Thread: 9/25/2016 03:53:57


Darth Darth Binks
Level 56
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We also need to make sure that angry atheism with no reasoning is not allowed either.
I don't know if those exist on WL, either.
Evolution vs Creationism Thread: 9/25/2016 03:56:03

[FEL]Chatul
Level 22
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^It does. Atheists who think that creationism is so absurd and hence offer mere mocking or really weak arguments.

Edited 9/25/2016 03:56:14
Evolution vs Creationism Thread: 9/25/2016 04:22:51


Darth Darth Binks
Level 56
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Oh, I meant Atheists who will not resort to that crap, sorry.
Evolution vs Creationism Thread: 9/25/2016 04:24:13

[FEL]Chatul
Level 22
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^This is an issue. It does not matter whether evolution has a lot of evidence to support (it does), a bad argument is a bad argument even for a sound position.
Evolution vs Creationism Thread: 9/25/2016 04:32:52


Darth Darth Binks
Level 56
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In reality, I don't know of anyone willing to vouch for either side on this position who will be mature about it.

The most mild-spoken people on the forum are (aside from the lovable host of this thread) Juq, Eklipse, myself, and Des. Half of those people aren't actively on the forum anymore, and the other half don't care much about this debate topic.

Regardless, I have given you a thumbs up. I want to see if I can be proven wrong, but I also want to see how I will be proven correct.
- downvoted post by [TNW] Commander Vimes
Evolution vs Creationism Thread: 9/25/2016 05:13:12

[FEL]Chatul
Level 22
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^Great! :-)
Evolution vs Creationism Thread: 9/25/2016 05:18:36


Dr. Stupid 
Level 58
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For the record, I am a creationist, but to be honest, I really don't feel like arguing about it. When I look at nature, I see beauty. I see the work of an all powerful God who works with his creation better than any artist we have ever known works with his canvas. I've seen quite a bit of evidence for evolution, but it still can't defeat the notion (in my mind) that all this splendor can't just be a fluke or anomaly of sorts. I recognize this isn't much of an argument in favor of creation. I wish I could do a better job of explaining how I felt, but I have a hard time putting it into words. On the other side of the coin, I don't think that society at large would want you to try to talk me out of being a creationist. I feel a responsibility to a higher power to do or not do certain things and if you were able to ever talk me out of feeling that responsibility, I assure you I would do selfish things that would be harmful to society at large. Even if religion is 100% made up, if it makes me a better person to my neighbor, is it not accomplishing its purpose?

To sum up, I believe in a Creator God. You would not be able to talk me out of it. You really *shouldn't* try to talk me out of it. And I'm ok with you believing whatever you want to.
Evolution vs Creationism Thread: 9/25/2016 05:20:30


[TNW] Commander Vimes
Level 32
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^This guy is amazing. Took the words outta my mouth.
Evolution vs Creationism Thread: 9/25/2016 05:55:05


Rogue Nikolai Krogius
Level 57
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I reject the notion of spontaneous creation. By that I mean a notion that the universe came into being without the effort of any outside forces.

We live in a universe of cause and effects. That mouse moved because you pushed it and it stopped because of the force of friction. The earth orbits the sun because it was pushed into that orbit and it stays there because Sun's gravity acts on the earth and an equal and opposite Gravitational force from the Earth acts on the Sun. The objects in the universe move because an outside force was exerted on them. We live in a universe of cause and effects.

Therefore, to believe that a super condensed form of the universe (talking about the big bang) exploded just "because it had to" is not a logical argument.

There had to be some cause with the effect of creating the universe.

The law of inertia (aka Newton's 1st law) tell us that objects do not move unless activated by an outside force. In order for the big bang theory to work, some outside force had to initiate it.

I call this outside force God.

Edited 9/25/2016 05:59:27
Evolution vs Creationism Thread: 9/25/2016 06:14:02


Major General Smedley Butler
Level 49
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If there is something I do not know, I cannot simply say it's a supernatural being. F.E: I see Tabby. He is beyond my normal understanding in terms of humans in that he identifies as a cat, hates reproduction, and is generally irrational. If I do not understand him or now how he came to be, does that mean the devil or some daemon created him?
Evolution vs Creationism Thread: 9/25/2016 06:27:21


Rogue Nikolai Krogius
Level 57
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This particular outside force is different from others. If Time where a set dominoes lined up in a linear fashion then something had to force the first domino to fall. This is a necessary fact about the universe.

We live in a world of moving things. Movement is caused by movers. Everything that was set into motion must have been set into motion by something else that was moving. Therefore, something must have started all this motion in the first place.

This outside force is different from all other forces in that it is an unmoved mover and an un caused causer. This force HAS to exist and therefore so does a creator. This force is not something that is unknown. It is a known and its effects are measurable.

Edited 9/25/2016 06:29:47
Evolution vs Creationism Thread: 9/25/2016 06:35:25


Major General Smedley Butler
Level 49
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I do not know the workings of creation and no one does. We may know parts, but we do not see the full picture and shouldn't assume since something works at one point, that it has always been and worked like that. So arguing about whether a god did it or not when we can only speculate about most of it is premature at best. It is such a unknowable thing at this point that it's really useless arguing about it. Also this isn't a thread about the Big Bang.
Evolution vs Creationism Thread: 9/25/2016 06:54:29


[FEL] The Prince of Felidia
Level 55
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I kind of believe that there wre just little polandballs called "molicyoulze" running about space. Then Northkoreaball tried to nuke Russiaball but the nuke didn't get far off the Kim-Jongapult and it caused an explosion which non-Polandballists call "The Bib Gang" and that created everything. Maybe there was a Godball who gave NKB the nuke, but I don't think so.
Evolution vs Creationism Thread: 9/25/2016 07:05:23


Rogue Nikolai Krogius
Level 57
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The big bang proves Creationism and therefore this thread is about the big bang. Now, you claim that you do not know about the workings of creation and yet assume that because you do not know that my argument is false.

Ignorance is not an argument.

By stating you do not know does not guarantee that others don't. By stating something is too complicated to understand and walking away doesn't prove anything and really isn't in the best interest of human knowledge.

Where would we be if Galileo assumed motion was too complicated to understand and moved on?
What if Newton assumed that Gravity and Calculus was too difficult because he couldn't see the full picture and gave up?
What if two bicycle mechanics decided that humans just weren't meant to understand flight and gave up?
What if Nicola Tesla stated he doesn't know the workings of electricity and gave up because he would "never see the full picture"?

The answer is that we would live in a more primitive and more dangerous world. The comforts we enjoy to today and the advancements we have made as a human race is because we decided that just because we don't know doesn't mean we can't know.

I find your lack of enthusiasm towards the subject to be disproportionate to your post count, Major.

Edited 9/25/2016 07:07:53
Evolution vs Creationism Thread: 9/25/2016 08:15:15


Master Jz 
Level 60
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The three basic viewpoints:
1: Pure Evolution (Evolution occurred randomly with no influence from a creator)
2: Evolutionary Creationism (Evolution happened, but there was a guiding force to it - God)
3: Pure Creationism (Evolution didn't happen, things were created by God)

If you don't believe that the evidence overwhelmingly points toward evolution, read up on anthropology/early human history. Genetic mutations give us a good idea of how long ago two species diverged and the mutations consistently show up in the species you'd expect them to if they evolved. In order for #3 to be true, a creator must have gone way out of his way to plant evidence to make it look like we evolved. #3 seems unlikely.

Since there is currently no way to disprove or prove that God was involved, a debate between #1 and #2 is kind of pointless.

For Rogue:
If the big bang was an act of creation by an outside force, where did the outside force come from? How was it created?
- downvoted post by {Canidae} Kretoma
- downvoted post by Nauzhror
Evolution vs Creationism Thread: 9/25/2016 08:46:50


[FEL] The Prince of Felidia
Level 55
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I'm an agnostic atheist, but I would never believe in organized religion. Most of them are sexist, racist et cetera in some way
Evolution vs Creationism Thread: 9/25/2016 08:50:59

Nauzhror 
Level 54
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Religion as far as I am concerned is nothing more than a control mechanism and a coping mechanism.

It's a control mechanism for the people who create the religions, profit from them, etc. For everyone else, the normal people that follow them, it is a coping mechanism.
Evolution vs Creationism Thread: 9/25/2016 08:56:39


[TNW] Commander Vimes
Level 32
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Yeah, thanks for insulting my intelligence, Nauzhror. Way to win a debate.
Evolution vs Creationism Thread: 9/25/2016 09:03:51

MasterOfWarZone
Level 50
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Anyone whose ever seen you play Warlight already knew you weren't intelligent. Suck it up pumpkin.

This is a game that evolves around math. You're bad at it. Bad at math and intelligent are mutually exclusive in my eyes.

Edited 9/25/2016 09:05:51
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