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Contemplation Thread: Can a Command Economy work?: 9/26/2016 03:45:48


[WL] Colonel Harthacanute
Level 50
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Throughout our recent history, some nut somewhere has been trying to create a command economy that works. Everyone fails eventually. Either they fail and fall (USSR) or they submit (China/Cuba).

My question is: Is it possible to create a Command Economy that will actually work?

I am a grand believer in Thatcherism and so I am fiercely for the open-market. Convince me.
Contemplation Thread: Can a Command Economy work?: 9/26/2016 04:19:31


Major General Smedley Butler
Level 49
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the demand is far too high in basic areas such as water, food and the more modern necessities such as internet and electricity and the ability to satisfy these demands while still charging exuberant prices such as two dollars for a single bottle of water

If you charge everyone a million dollars for water, you make little to no money, the money's worthless, and everyone's dead. So if you have a magic water monopoly, you have to lower the price or have no customers.

And this is only assuming competition hasn't occurred. If there is competition occurring (and you haven't magically acquired all water) and you sell water at 10,000 and another sells it at 9,000, you make absolutely no money and the other makes almost all of the money made. So you lower your price, and he lowers his price until it's not worth lowering your price. Then you start offering a better service; so you start offering bigger water bottles, and jugs of it, while he does the same. The product has thus been made cheaper and better through free markets.

Unless you're fine with billions starving while millions grow obese, I suggest supporting a command economy.

Venezuela is the latest command economy. Let's look at that:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/25/half-of-venezuela-children-go-hungry/amp/

Under your idea that the government will make it so that everyone can afford basic necessities, all these children should be well fed.

Basically it's humanity over greed

Capitalism has made it where you can become rich by serving your fellow man; government makes it where you become rich by robbing your fellow man.
Contemplation Thread: Can a Command Economy work?: 9/26/2016 05:05:43


Rogue Nikolai Krogius
Level 57
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I surprisingly agree with Paugers. Any system can work so long as you have enough brainwashed patriots working in the salt mines for 16 hours a day.

The specific type of command economy that Paugers espouses is very efficient. Nazi germany, for example, was an economic powerhouse and the quality of life for its people would have been amazing (assuming you aren't black, gay, a political dissident, a communist, or a Jew) had their foreign policy been different.

The main gripe against the command economy of National Socialism is that it relies on scapegoats and destroys civil liberties, not that the economy doesn't boom.
Contemplation Thread: Can a Command Economy work?: 9/26/2016 05:16:12

[FEL]Chatul
Level 22
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Is some form of this system working in Israel now?

^We can find scapegoats without discrimination based on ancestry. One way to do so is to claim that there is an alien threat. Now it is justified for humanity to unite and aim all our weapons at space. We can demand a lot of things ostensibly for the sake of protecting humanity from alien threats, such as forcing African tribal wars to end, removing Islamism, etc. The word "alien" needs to be mentioned every day so that we can do things ostensibly to resolve this threat. It does not matter whether the alien threat is real. Let's just pretend that it is. Otherwise humans will find some reason to kill each other.

Another way is to focus on some common, external enemy that isn't actually very powerful. For example we can claim that Islamists want to kill all humanity or at least they do things that may result in human extinction. Then any form of domestic conflict will be resolved since "mad Islamists want to kill us all". For example if we have some reason to start a WWIII against Islamism we can send KKK members and inner ghetto gangsters to the battlefield to fight Islamism and turn them into something better. Of course Islamism needs to be fought. However this is also an opportunity to resolve other conflicts ostensibly for the sake of protecting humanity from Islamism.

Edited 9/26/2016 05:25:55
Contemplation Thread: Can a Command Economy work?: 9/26/2016 06:48:06


TeamGuns 
Level 58
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It' sur easier to make a command economy to work when you're using it to build planes and tanks than when you use it to build iphones and grow crops. Germany also seized ressources from occupied territories so we can't say it really worked on by itself.

A command economy can work in theory and possibly even better than a free market economy if you're able to predict with accuracy the needs of a population. Capitalism often finds this out with alternances of overproduction and underproduction until the market forces a convergence to the "right" level of production; you can do better than that in theory.

The problem with theories is that they often fail to work in real life. Keynesianism and liberalism are both supposed to work in theory, and yet when you study real life applications of them...

However I also happen to believe that a planified economy is a futuristic idea that failed in the past because the USSR and others weren't able to predict consumers needs or even failed to make efficient economies at all. That prediction probably would depend in huge computer calculation power and brilliant economists/statisticians. It may also be our only solution to secure a minimum to survive in the future if we keep destroying our planet and growing our population.

Edited 9/26/2016 06:49:25
Contemplation Thread: Can a Command Economy work?: 9/26/2016 06:51:52


Major General Smedley Butler
Level 49
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I'm aware this is meant to be a joke, however, this is really apart of the problem. Fresh sources of water have been declared "his" and "my" land and now the only thing that stops Frank, who is homeless and dehydrated, from being able to sip their water is the fact that they somehow own it? So businesses own and have a right to charge the common man for a God given resources because a paper they have says so? Idiocy.

Does the business own the land the rain falls on? Yes they own the rain that fell on their property. Does the common man have to buy water from them? Probably not, he can grab a bucket, clean it out and store water in it.

Undoubtedly the product is cheaper than it could be, hypothetically businesses could sell whatever they wanted for whatever price they wanted.

Yes but if they sell it too high they'll suffer

Ann is still unable to provide full, healthy meals her 3 children need in order to maintain their health.

Why has Ann had three children and why didn't she have the capability to support them? And Ann doesn't exist at this point; socialism in the US has enabled the collapse of many two parent families and the need for them.

we punish Ann and make her children hateful because they are forced to live in a society that says you are worth less simply because your stay at home Mom was forced to get a divorce by your selfish father

Welfare exists and this is one of it's by products; destroyed families.

The problem with Venezuela is that they use the communist system

You're proposing the same system with a paint job.

It's places money and wealth at the center of it's ideology

Let the dogs of the empire bark, that's their job; ours is to battle to achieve the true liberation of our people.
- Hugo Chavez

Capitalism has made it where you can become rich by stealing from your fellow man to sell to another man.

Property is not theft; capitalism has made it where providing services is better than stealing.

I agree, however, there are no national socialist governments now days and the only one there ever has been was a very healthy nation.

Funny, Syria and Iraq aren't doing so well right now; funny, they were national socialist too. Ah, Sic Semper Tyrannis.
Contemplation Thread: Can a Command Economy work?: 9/26/2016 07:28:08


TeamGuns 
Level 58
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Why has Ann had three children and why didn't she have the capability to support them?


Matbe Ann didnt have a sex-ed and basic budget classes. The big problem with the proud defenders of Misses is that they just see piles of money and that if ones has it, it certainly worked hard for it! So let's just leave the poor and sick die, we're teaching them a lesson. That's cruel and inhuman.
Contemplation Thread: Can a Command Economy work?: 9/26/2016 13:02:17

[FEL]Chatul
Level 22
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The patriarchy is inherently economically inefficient in the modern world. There is no inherent reason someone like Emmy Noether should have been forced to be a homemaker simply for her gender instead of what she did (math research). To see how economically inefficient the patriarchy is just please look at Saudi Arabia. Why forbid women from driving but allow any arbitrary male driver to give them rides? Aha this is not to prevent adultery. Instead this exists solely to enforce the patriarchy.

One key demographic problem of the modern world is that rich and developed societies breed less than poor and undeveloped ones. Germans and Japanese do not breed enough to replace their numbers while Niger keeps breeding. It is in essence a conflict between individualism and familism. The moment transhumanism or human immortality is achieved is the moment breeding will largely end.

BTW Post 2 should be upvoted.

Edited 9/26/2016 13:18:22
Contemplation Thread: Can a Command Economy work?: 9/26/2016 13:22:51

[FEL]Chatul
Level 22
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Paugers, we can make aliens or Islamism de facto the worst threat to humanity or at least indoctrinate people that this is true. I don't care if black Africans do not believe that aliens are the single most serious problem for humanity. What we should do is to send in UN troops to force the conflict to end ostensibly to preserve human unity for "resisting aliens". Aliens will be the ostensible reason we use to regulate Congo and other undeveloped places currently with poor human rights. Humans always need a scapegoat so let's pretend that aliens are around Alpha Centauri and will invade the earth approximately 200 years later. Hence we have a good reason to develop anti-alien weapons.

For example for the sake of America we need to break down ghettos and integrate poor black Americans (instill in them the values of work, love of science and a desire to be like the rest of us). Now we can use a war on Islamism to be a pretext to get them into Arabian peninsula for example to be soldiers and even settlers. We can also use aliens as a pretext to pass legislation to force everyone to learn science so that they can contribute to the War against Aliens.

Edited 9/26/2016 13:31:57
Contemplation Thread: Can a Command Economy work?: 9/26/2016 13:31:04


BUFFALO
Level 44
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one sentence comment passing through
Contemplation Thread: Can a Command Economy work?: 9/26/2016 14:13:43


Rogue Nikolai Krogius
Level 57
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Ok. There is a lot there Paugers so I will take it one at a time.

Lets start with your water analogy.

Companies do not sell humans water. In the materialistic sense, yes, but that is not what you buy when you buy a bottle of water.

When you buy a bottle of water you buy the customer service, you buy the purification of that water, and you buy the accountability of the company should you get sick from that bottle of water among other things such as collection, distribution, and advertisement of that bottle of water.

This is a flawed analogy.

Furthermore, the water analogy can be applied to almost anything. Oil, trees, farmland, cows, iron ore, and other raw materials (including humans) can easily take the place of water in your analogy and yet most would see the harvesting and sale of these products as not "Stealing from the earth". The earth doesn't own anything as it is not a citizen because it was not born in any country.

To answer the original post:

Yes. A command economy can work but the people engineering it must be incredibly brilliant and have the power to predict the future. Given that prerequisite I think almost any system would work if the people in charge had these characteristics. The free market works just as well with much dumber people in charge.

Edited 9/26/2016 14:16:17
Contemplation Thread: Can a Command Economy work?: 9/26/2016 15:05:56


Bla 
Level 17
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First of all Pauger's comment on 'negros' being incapable of contemplating alien threats is nonsense. Do you have any evidence to back up that 'negros' cannot do that? I know a black person who have done a master in quantum physics, yet he should be too stupid to contemplate that? What kind of alternate reality do you live in, where you can make up such insulting, prejudiced nonsense?

As for a command economy, yes, it can work. The USSR's economy grew rapidly for decades - it stagnated in the end, but it had still been working for decades and made the living standards rise tremendously compared to Russia before the revolution. No-one can deny that.

However, the west has historically been richer than the countries that became socialist, and when said countries became socialist - tried to isolate them economically and in many cases invade them, ending up in expensive arms races with much richer countries and locking up large parts of their economy for military rather than civillian development. Had the west or most of the world transitioned to socialism and some poorer countries suddenly turned to capitalism, and a conflict arose between those two blocs, I doubt the capitalist bloc would get very rich.

I think, with our continued development of computers and AIs, command economies become an ever-increasingly plausible alternative to the unjust anarchy of capitalism, and one day, technology will be so advanced we can transition from socialism to communism and have distribution based on need.
Contemplation Thread: Can a Command Economy work?: 9/26/2016 15:08:15


KK2nd BFD
Level 32
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begone commie
Contemplation Thread: Can a Command Economy work?: 9/26/2016 15:08:47


Bla 
Level 17
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Nah
Contemplation Thread: Can a Command Economy work?: 9/26/2016 15:10:55


KK2nd BFD
Level 32
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''I know a black person who have done a master in quantum physics''

anecdotal evidence is worthless.

''The USSR's economy grew rapidly for decades''

topkek

''made the living standards rise tremendously compared to Russia before the revolution''

citation needed

''command economies become an ever-increasingly plausible alternative to the unjust anarchy of capitalism''

prove it

''technology will be so advanced we can transition from socialism to communism and have distribution based on need''

MUH POST-SCARCITY

even if it was possible why would it be beneficial?
Contemplation Thread: Can a Command Economy work?: 9/26/2016 15:11:51

[FEL]Chatul
Level 22
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^^Blacks are statistically underdeveloped in terms of economy and scientific knowledge. However this can be and should be fixed.

Edited 9/26/2016 15:12:05
Contemplation Thread: Can a Command Economy work?: 9/26/2016 15:12:48


KK2nd BFD
Level 32
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''should be fixed''

why?
Contemplation Thread: Can a Command Economy work?: 9/26/2016 15:13:52

[FEL]Chatul
Level 22
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^What else do you want to do? If you do not fix that they will claim it is racism at work when in reality their own anti-intellectualism is more of a culprit.
Contemplation Thread: Can a Command Economy work?: 9/26/2016 15:19:31


KK2nd BFD
Level 32
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why should we deal with them at all?
- downvoted post by [FEL]Chatul
Contemplation Thread: Can a Command Economy work?: 9/26/2016 15:22:08


KK2nd BFD
Level 32
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''^If we do not deal with them they will attack us for real or supposed racism.''

why is that a problem? They'll attack us regardless.
- downvoted post by [FEL]Chatul
- downvoted post by KK2nd BFD
- downvoted post by [FEL]Chatul
Contemplation Thread: Can a Command Economy work?: 9/26/2016 15:55:22


KK2nd BFD
Level 32
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why?
- downvoted post by [FEL]Chatul
Contemplation Thread: Can a Command Economy work?: 9/26/2016 15:59:54


KK2nd BFD
Level 32
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now you're speaking in circles. Why are you opposed to genocide?
Contemplation Thread: Can a Command Economy work?: 9/26/2016 16:00:32


Bla 
Level 17
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"anecdotal evidence is worthless."
Paugers made a claim that applied to all black people. In that case an anecdote contrary to his claim would disprove it.

''made the living standards rise tremendously compared to Russia before the revolution''

"citation needed"
The USSR in 1990 was a major superpower, had sent men into space, launched satellites, space stations, universal education and healthcare, very low unemployment, life expectancy comparable to USA and for some years earlier, higher, and was many times richer than Russia before the revolution. If you're not aware of these facts I'm just sorry for you, I know the burden is really on me to provide sources in a discussion but I don't care enough for your denial to do that.

''command economies become an ever-increasingly plausible alternative to the unjust anarchy of capitalism''
"prove it"
It makes no sense to ask for proof that one economic system becomes more plausible than another - you don't understand the meaning of "proof" if you can expect that. Proof demonstrates something with 100% certainty - that's impossible in economics, even in most scientific branches - only theoretical mathematic relations can be 'proven'.
It is obvious however that as technology becomes more advanced, the old arguments against communism based on human greed become irrelevant, because machines and AIs can take over the human work and help in economic planning as well. If economic planning wasn't possible due to humans, as some liberals say, the increasing processing power of computers and efficient communication/data transmission of modern information technology render that argument increasingly obsolete.

"MUH POST-SCARCITY

even if it was possible why would it be beneficial?"

Why it would be beneficial to satisfy people's needs so they can live happy lives and pursue their dreams rather than let a bunch of greedy parasites siphon the wealth of workers to become billionaires while millions of people live in poverty, are homeless, have problem affording basic food, clothing and shelter or medicine? Hmmmmmmmmm.......
Contemplation Thread: Can a Command Economy work?: 9/26/2016 16:00:46

[FEL]Chatul
Level 22
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I hate killing people.

It seems that I agree with conservatives, alt rights and far rights that the ghetto culture is a problem. However I favor a more caring solution.

Edited 9/26/2016 16:01:54
Contemplation Thread: Can a Command Economy work?: 9/26/2016 16:09:52


KK2nd BFD
Level 32
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''In that case an anecdote contrary to his claim would disprove it.''

nope

''The USSR in 1990 was a major superpower, had sent men into space, launched satellites, space stations, universal education and healthcare''

none of those tell me anything about the standard of living for the average Ivan.

''very low unemployment''

citation needed

'' life expectancy comparable to USA and for some years earlier, higher''

quantity doesn't equate to quality.

''and was many times richer than Russia before the revolution''

see the 2nd statement

''If you're not aware of these facts I'm just sorry for you, I know the burden is really on me to provide sources in a discussion but I don't care enough for your denial to do that.''

''I can't provide any so I'll just insult you.''

''It makes no sense to ask for proof that one economic system becomes more plausible than another''

why?

''It is obvious however that as technology becomes more advanced, the old arguments against communism based on human greed become irrelevant, because machines and AIs can take over the human work and help in economic planning as well. If economic planning wasn't possible due to humans, as some liberals say, the increasing processing power of computers and efficient communication/data transmission of modern information technology render that argument increasingly obsolete.''

No citation that we'll ever achieve post-scarcity.

''Why it would be beneficial to satisfy people's needs so they can live happy lives and pursue their dreams rather than let a bunch of greedy parasites siphon the wealth of workers to become billionaires while millions of people live in poverty, are homeless, have problem affording basic food, clothing and shelter or medicine? Hmmmmmmmmm....... ''

''I'd rather have an endless number of miserable people born on an increasingly polluted and crowded planet because we can!''

10/10 plan commie

''I hate killing people.''

weakness
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