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CL 101/Outlaw & Committe discussion: 10/17/2016 15:39:13

linberson
Level 59
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Hi all,

since there seems to be a need for discussion here is the place for it.

Committe announcement regarding 101/Outlaws
https://www.warlight.net/Forum/160503-clan-league-8-division-b-official-thread?Offset=300

Vote announcement: https://www.warlight.net/Forum/160503-clan-league-8-division-b-official-thread?Offset=450

Vote game: https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=12132630

Be nice to each other.

Edited 10/17/2016 15:45:38
CL 101/Outlaw & Committe discussion: 10/17/2016 15:52:29

linberson
Level 59
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Beren:
While we recognize that both Outlaws and 101st have arguments as to why they deserve the spot, we ultimately decided that Outlaws is more deserving.


Nauz:
Clans don't earn things. Players do.


le Marseillais:
soooo Unfair!! i hope u ll change your mind!


Kasparov:
Seriously. That stinks of corruption.


King Bradford:
There's a lot of harsh talk and petty insults in this thread honestly you people need to act like the adults you are and calm down.


Edited 10/17/2016 16:14:36
CL 101/Outlaw & Committe discussion: 10/17/2016 16:13:54


Beren • apex 
Level 62
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Thank you for creating this thread, linberson. I'm sorry I polluted the Division B thread with my announcement. In retrospect I should have created a new thread for it.

Edited 10/17/2016 16:14:00
CL 101/Outlaw & Committe discussion: 10/17/2016 16:33:59

linberson
Level 59
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Whooohoooo. Leave my Division B thread alone and discuss here! =)
CL 101/Outlaw & Committe discussion: 10/17/2016 17:00:35

Master of the Dead 
Level 62
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Vote seems like a bit of a waste of time. I think the majority of people disagree with the panels decision but nobody or very few wish for a new panel. Most if not all appreciate you guys did what you thought was best.

Think it would be more worthwhile to vote on whether outlaws or 101st get the spot than on replacing the panel.

People are questioning our integrity. The main leader of 101st continually insinuates that we have colluded with Outlaws. Like Beren said, if every decision we make is going to be second guessed and put to a community vote, then we're talking of a change in the way things are handled. And don't get me wrong, that is perfectly acceptable if the majority feels this is the way to go. Just that we are not the right candidates to lead this panel.

I believe the current panel is doing the best job they can do and would like them to continue doing so, but the only change I would make is maybe divesting some of their powers to the wider CL community. For instance, in most major sports when there has been a suggestion for a key change in say the league structure or what to do when a club goes bust, all other clubs get to vote on what they think should happen, I don't see many negatives to using this in CL especially when there is no current rule which can be used to resolve the issue.


Andy, it is really hard to reach consensus when you increase the number of people involved. The last panel suffered from that. If people are not online often, it is hard to have a discussion. It results in having to read walls of text every time you get online. If someone else wants to try this model, they are more than welcome to direct proceedings. And I do not mean this is a "throw your toys out the pram" kind of way. I am genuinely asking you guys to try it out. From my past experience, I think it is hard to make it work.


Yeah. Can the panel comment on allowing 101st to compete in B? and including an extra relegation spot? I think that's a fair compromise.

It's been suggested a few times and nobody has come up with a reason against it.

I'm not going to get into the argument of who should have the A spot but I don't see any reason why 101st should not be in B next season and just have 3 relegation spots for 1 season. There isn't really an argument against it (please do post if there is) as the players who moved to outlaws were not the ones to get them as far as B.

We did consider this option. But here is why this breaks down. After such a ruling, say another clan in A comes out and splits up into 5 new clans. Based on your solution, I am now forced to hand 5 slots to all of these sub clans in Group A. Is that acceptable?

Edited 10/17/2016 18:33:40
CL 101/Outlaw & Committe discussion: 10/17/2016 18:16:43


ChrisCMU 
Level 60
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Yeah, the idea of having all CLs vote on issues rather than a panel is valid. But motd is right. I have had CLs vote on other things in the past and it is not easy. For example, they voted/vote on templates. that had several issues:

1) people complained about the options they were voting on
2) people complained about how to count the votes
3) people took weeks to vote
4) people were ignorant to the options they were voting on

So you can use that method, but there are great pitfalls to that method. What motd is saying is that they don't want to run a league using that method.

So, you need to decide if the majority of people want that system, then they need to figure out how to run it. If not, then stop berating the panel when they make hard choices.
CL 101/Outlaw & Committe discussion: 10/17/2016 18:23:22

Mike
Level 58
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Is that acceptable?


It's not of course.

However this is not a hijack of a clan but a hijack of a spot. And once such rule is set up, this could happen and happen again in the future. Clan (the players not playing in CL but supporting their team, the leader, players playing CL but not willing to migrate) will be held hostage of such a possible decision by their core players and there's nothing they will be able to do to prevent it. No matter if they were responsible in part or in full of training their best players competing in CL, or the effort they've delivered to reach a high division.

A group of players is leaving a clan on their will, so it should be their responsibility to try to obtain the gift of the spot from their original clan, and only if it is granted should they have it and in that case I guess nobody would complain here.

It's not about Outlaws, it's not about 101st, it's about every clan participating in CL, that could be touched by such a movement one day.

Right now the new rule seems to say
- The division is awarded to the group of players who reached in majority that division during the very last season.
- And a clan is relegated to the bottom if a majority of its line up in the very last season is not in the clan any more.

Such decision is not as simple as saying "Outlaws currently gather the majority of players who earned promotion from division B", it comes with a lot more consequences.

Like it has been said before, with players movement between clans, if 1 clan loses half of his squad (for any reason : retirement, internal argument, difference of view of its ideal clan) who are splitted in different clan(s), should they automatically and systematically lose their current spot in CL and start from the bottom again ?

Anyhow, the Panel have proven many time their integrity and the amount of thoughts they've put in every decision they made. So for that reason, and sorry to 101st, if this decision is final I won't agree with it, but I will accept it fully and won't be unhappy whatsoever, and I will still plan to play in CL when my time has come. I'll just hope however that such case won't happen again, and that if it does, the CL will take the right decision once for all, to avoid room for subjectivity and possible unfairness.

Edited 10/17/2016 18:28:29
CL 101/Outlaw & Committe discussion: 10/17/2016 18:57:01

Memele 
Level 60
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One thing to note:
People claim that the outlaws accepted to represent 101 but the oppossite it's also true, 101 accepted being represented by them. Outlaws players could have just surrendered in all the games and 101 would have been last and dropped to C, but they didn't.


Fortunately, with the new clot system, players can be replaced and leaving a clan in the middle of the competition only affect to the games that are being played.

Edited 10/17/2016 18:58:37
CL 101/Outlaw & Committe discussion: 10/17/2016 19:10:04


Zephyrum 
Level 60
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We did consider this option. But here is why this breaks down. After such a ruling, say another clan in A comes out and splits up into 5 new clans. Based on your solution, I am now forced to hand 5 slots to all of these sub clans in Group A. Is that acceptable?


No CL precedents seem to have ever been set, I don't think a situation like this one is going to set one either. One can claim otherwise, but for basically anything unexpected/new that happens in CL, even when a relatively similar situation had already popped up in the past, the result is grouping up and finding a new decision over simple pragmatism.

You've already put some precedents to question with your last decision, keeping them both in Group B or - as some suggested previously - have them compete over it (there's still quite a lot of time until Division A ends) would be the only ways I can imagine of neither side having great loss.

Trying to answer "what makes something, it's name or it's people?" is not going to work - if it did and were so easy, the world would probably have avoided a large chunk of territorial wars. Expert diplomats have yet to find an easy solution, so coming up with one like it's not that big of a deal is one huge mistake. It's, much like RNK pointed, a paradox.

I have invited every registered clan leader at the beginning of CL8. Was ForK registered? Also to be perfectly clear, this vote is not for who gets the spot. This vote is to determine if the panel is dishonest and abusing power.


Nope. You missed leaders of a couple clans around. Like Dr Stupid mentioned in the other thread, there's the ACME situation. In addition, Relmcheatham is not a manager nor a point of contact for the wolves, the original point of contact was the (now retired) Knyte. The only active manager is Terre (my alt). Throught this league, Relm never got a hold of being PoC, and didn't even participate in the games as far as I recall.
CL 101/Outlaw & Committe discussion: 10/17/2016 19:23:53

Master of the Dead 
Level 62
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No CL precedents seem to have ever been set, I don't think a situation like this one is going to set one either. One can claim otherwise, but for basically anything unexpected/new that happens in CL, even when a relatively similar situation had already popped up in the past, the result is grouping up and finding a new decision over simple pragmatism.

You've already put some precedents to question with your last decision, keeping them both in Group B or - as some suggested previously - have them compete over it (there's still quite a lot of time until Division A ends) would be the only ways I can imagine of neither side having great loss.

You're entitled to the opinion that every decision will be made on an ad hoc basis. But we're trying to work towards consistency. So we disagree with you on that.

Nope. You missed leaders of a couple clans around. Like Dr Stupid mentioned in the other thread, there's the ACME situation. In addition, Relmcheatham is not a manager nor a point of contact for the wolves, the original point of contact was the (now retired) Knyte. The only active manager is Terre (my alt). Throught this league, Relm never got a hold of being PoC, and didn't even participate in the games as far as I recall.

I've already invited Dr Stupid as you can see. Relmcheatham is the listed contact on the sheet provided to me by ChrisCMU. I'll invite you instead.
CL 101/Outlaw & Committe discussion: 10/17/2016 19:59:48


Zephyrum 
Level 60
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You're entitled to the opinion that every decision will be made on an ad hoc basis. But we're trying to work towards consistency. So we disagree with you on that.


Well, whether you're working towards it or not is beyond me for I have no access, but as is consistency is very shallow if it even exists. Probably one of the biggest current flaws there.

I've already invited Dr Stupid as you can see. Relmcheatham is the listed contact on the sheet provided to me by ChrisCMU. I'll invite you instead.


I have no idea how Relm ended up being on Chris' contact list, lol. But thanks for the fast reply.
CL 101/Outlaw & Committe discussion: 10/17/2016 22:51:55


Dr. Stupid 
Level 58
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Yes Dr. Stupid has been invited. Now everyone can quit freaking out about me. Lol. :)
CL 101/Outlaw & Committe discussion: 10/17/2016 23:22:53


TeamGuns 
Level 58
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From the other thread (bc Linberson asked so nicely that we moved our petty conversation here and bc I like him :p).

I believe that 101st of today is totally different than Apollo's 101st. Claiming Fork is the same as Apollo is seriously stupid and ignorant. I would say 101st changed so much since the original 101st, that anyone claiming to have a right to the spot for being an original 101st outside of Blowfly is really a petty argument.

I would say 101st went through several different identities and "clanhoods" for the past years:


- Apollo's original 101st, this clan disappeared when Lynx was formed and the best players moved to it.

- Declining 101st in a Lynx-101st system existed after that, it got relegated twice in the CL, no one was really in charge and the clan came near extinction.

- Childish 101st then appeared under Platinum I. Because he made some poor decisions and clearly lacked maturity, he was taken out of the clan's business.

- Platinum II took advices from Styxie and Zero before he became evil managed to get promoted to B, later joined Markus, Tacky, Bonsai, Jinxed and I that played under 101st banner willing to join Lynx in the future.

- Rebelious 101st then rose to power. We didnt want to break a full functional clan to give our bests to Lynx when outside of Zero and mostly AG we'd never got any training from any fooking Lynx. We tried to make it work with a fusion, a system where Lynx remaining active players joined us or an independent system. Apollo came back and made it clear he wanted his clan back. We decided to move over and return the clan ownership to Apollo. When it came clear that Zero was manipulating us and later spying for months out of idk the fuck why, there wasn't really a comeback.

- Forgotten knight assumes control of 101st and believes Zero small talk that the spot of 101st belongs to him because it belonged to Apollo and that Outlaws are jerks that left the ship without any reason.


Seriously claiming that we colluded with the council is not only blatant ignorance towards the story that happened but also insulting to the council. We'd never knew for months or weeks (as some conspiracionists would say) about the decision.

Us saying that the spot was ours and that we were recruiting for A next season was just a way to mark our position in the matter more than a full certainty that the spot was ours. We were as y'all taken by surprise by the panel's decision, and for I ignored they'd been discussing that issue for months.

Oh and don't feel sorry if Zero manipulated you guys for months until believing the spot was rightfully tours for idk what reason. He lied, spyied and tryied to recruit some of us, and his small talk to you probably isn't nothing but a way to take a revenge against us.

I'm seriously disapointed Lynx didn't punish him at all after the hacking Tacky's Skype account and using it to spying on us thing. That probably crippled my opinion of Lynx up to a point where sincere and honorable members such as AG, JSA, Andy and Hades can't do anything to restore it.

Edited 10/17/2016 23:23:52
CL 101/Outlaw & Committe discussion: 10/18/2016 00:09:25


Emu Pub
Level 60
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Drama, drama, blah, blah, drama, drama.

End result:

1. People left 101 to become Outlaws.
2. Panel chose to give promotion spot to Outlaws.
3. Everyone can stop whining about it and either:
a. Play CL in the future.
b. Not play CL in the future.


And everyone should stop giving the panel a hard time. They are spending hundreds of hours NOT PLAYING so that all of CL can happen. Now shut the **** up about the various pieces of drama and move on.
CL 101/Outlaw & Committe discussion: 10/18/2016 00:43:40


Rogue Nikolai Krogius
Level 57
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^ Bird is the word.
CL 101/Outlaw & Committe discussion: 10/18/2016 05:13:58


LeQuébécois_Benoit
Level 60
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@Pub lol
CL 101/Outlaw & Committe discussion: 10/18/2016 07:47:14

krunx
Level 57
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1. People left 101 to become Outlaws.
2. Panel chose to give promotion spot to Outlaws.
3. Everyone can stop whining about it and either:
a. Play CL in the future.
b. Not play CL in the future.


And everyone should stop giving the panel a hard time. They are spending hundreds of hours NOT PLAYING so that all of CL can happen. Now shut the **** up about the various pieces of drama and move on.


I believe this decision is wrong and it is my and everyones else right to critizise this decision. This has nothing to do with whining. I simply and honestly believe that this decision is wrong if you only look for the judical situation.
You are judging by the favourable outcome and through my eyes this is simply wrong in case of consistency in law.

People are questioning our integrity. The main leader of 101st continually insinuates that we have colluded with Outlaws. Like Beren said, if every decision we make is going to be second guessed and put to a community vote, then we're talking of a change in the way things are handled. And don't get me wrong, that is perfectly acceptable if the majority feels this is the way to go. Just that we are not the right candidates to lead this panel.


I agree on some degree, as we have to accept taken decisions to some point. I do not understand, why people are insulting the panel, which puts a lot of work into this. Personally I did not insult anyone in this thread. Through my eyes the whole thing got way to personal!

On the other hand I disagree with this decision and want to argue and show, why I believe is wrong and will create more problems in the future. Please state to me, how do you want to handle similiar cases in the future? Do you judge from case to case? There will always be discussions, because in the way it is decided now you will always search for comparable situations. But if we are honest, every case is different and in the end there is no clear cut. I feel like this will result in a missing objective standard.

I did argue that I see the participation right owned by the clans and not the players. I would be interested in your point of view on this statement. So far the very few (emotional) arguments of the opposite side did not convince me.

We did consider this option. But here is why this breaks down. After such a ruling, say another clan in A comes out and splits up into 5 new clans. Based on your solution, I am now forced to hand 5 slots to all of these sub clans in Group A. Is that acceptable?


Also true somehow, but through my eyes: If you decide from case to case, which you are doing right now, this is a solveable problem. And how high is the risk, that a Div.A clan spilts into 5 new clans which are all working without destroying other clans? I would not rate the risk that high. And if the case appears, the panel may judge that a clan identity consists of more than one player.

Edited 10/18/2016 07:48:56
CL 101/Outlaw & Committe discussion: 10/18/2016 12:13:32

linberson
Level 59
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Vote of confidence:
Pro Panel: 24
Contra Panel: 0
I believe thats a majority decision in favor of the panel to stay in roughly 24hrs.

Panel appreciation: Cherrypicked comments from the depth of flamewars!
(https://www.warlight.net/Forum/160503-clan-league-8-division-b-official-thread?Offset=300)


TeamGuns

Well, thanks for the update on that matter Beren.

I am happy with the decision, and I do believe it is fair and just.


TheRiverStyxie
we would just like to extend a huge thanks to the clan league panel for the thorough discussion and detailed reasons for the decision. We know it can't have been an easy one.


Apollo (Outlaws)
Thank you CL panel for you decision!

Seeing from berens post your decision is well justified.


MIFRAN
To call the panel corrupt, stupid and other words, its beyond what can be accepted. And shouldnt be said at all!


master of desaster
Calling them corrupt or stupid is just completely off.


Dom365
Firstly, I would like to preface this post by confessing my sympathy with the Clan League council; it is a nearly thankless task they have been given


GiantFrog
i highly doubt that the CL council made its decision based on any personal preferences.


Memele
it's difficult to say I agree or not with the decision, but I will respect it.


Benjamin628
clan league council made a decision, and I respect that decision


Benoit
The panel took a decision and I think we should respect it


Hades
thanks for all the effort guys. I'm more than willing to help in CL9 if needed.


krunx
First of all, I want to thank all organizers of this great event. You put in a bunch of work. Keep on the great work!


HankyPinky
I agree with the council's decision, (...) and i thank clan league management for all the time and energy they put in to run this league for us.


Mike
i have a tone of respect for MotD, Beren and all other CL Panels and their effort into running so successfully this CL


JSA
I agree with the council's decision. That said, this was not a black-and-white issue, and I fully understand why 101st feels they should have gotten the spot. Both clans definitely had a case for it, and I think the council made the correct decision in giving the spot to Outlaws.

The council is not biased. They simply felt that giving the spot to Outlaws was the fairest move here. Reports of the council being Outlaw-friendly simply are not true. Please lay off the council members simply because you do not agree with one decision they made.

Huge thanks to the council for all the hard and thankless work they do!


Cloud Strife
I for one agree with panel's decision 100% as a complete neutral in the matter.I understand their line of thinking, I am relatively familiar with past rulings and the hindsight of it all. The irony of this is that Lynx of all clans should understand why it would be a bad idea to have 101A ruling in this case. It's true that the decision imposed on Lynx previously was a bad one and I think everyone involved expressed a change of heart in hindsight. It would be wrong to let that ruling be a reason to impose the same bad decision on someone else again.


Don
First of all i would like to state that i somehow disagree with the councils decision based on their approach on that voting but i FIRMLY like to point out that those involved i higly value knowing them trying to be fair, friendly and in best interest for majority the clan league.

None the less of course i do accept the decision and also like to say "Thank you once more guys for all the effort and time you put into this to make this event beeing able to happen!!!"


andy903
i think anyone resulting to making personal insults to the CL committee (or anyone else for that matter) should be ashamed.
(...)
I believe the current panel is doing the best job they can do and would like them to continue doing so



Personally I really appreciate Clan League and want to thank you for your work as well.
CL 101/Outlaw & Committe discussion: 10/18/2016 12:30:58


Emu Pub
Level 60
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I believe this decision is wrong and it is my and everyones else right to critizise this decision. This has nothing to do with whining. I simply and honestly believe that this decision is wrong if you only look for the judical situation.
You are judging by the favourable outcome and through my eyes this is simply wrong in case of consistency in law.


@Krunx

1. Yes you have the right, you have done so already, now move on with life.
2. No one has said the decision was 'judicial', it was bound to be unfair to someone. No one ever said life is fair, now move on with life.
3. 'Favorable',ummm, I am not affiliated with 101st or Outlaws in anyway. I could have cared less who got promoted or not. So I am not judging by anything, I never even stated what I personally felt about the decision, now move on with life.
4. You are judging by the unfavorable outcome, which is natural, now move on with life.
CL 101/Outlaw & Committe discussion: 10/18/2016 16:18:05


OxTheAutist 
Level 58
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(In response to Plat's most recent post in the CL8 B thread):

Plat, frankly I could barely process the abortion of a defence you attempted to make, but simply:

Anything involving Zero personally has *nothing* to do with whether 101st or Outlaws should get the spot in A.

Very clearly the current council have made up their minds, and are not going to change their opinion despite how many people have spoke against it.

In my opinion, saying "players make up a clan" is silly, because clans change so much, and you have to be super specific in what players make up what clan. Why go through all that bother? You're going to have to make judgement calls every time, and there is no consistent rule to follow for what qualifies as "a group of players". For example, what separates the 3 players leaving Turtles and joining Chou Frisé's, and the 4 players leaving 101st and joining Outlaws? If it is the 1 player difference, I find this arbitrary as hell.

As a result, people won't know what to expect, and somebody will always feel let down because it's based on a judgement call.

When you have a simple, easy-to-follow rule, people know what they're getting. Because of this, there's no outrage; no boycott; nobody is disappointed. Essentially, more people are happy.

And why disagree with a rule where more people are happy?
CL 101/Outlaw & Committe discussion: 10/18/2016 16:24:31

rouxburg
Level 59
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Why are you guys joined 101st's?
CL 101/Outlaw & Committe discussion: 10/18/2016 16:39:30


Semendevine
Level 52
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Why are you Master of Trolling?
CL 101/Outlaw & Committe discussion: 10/18/2016 16:53:05

rouxburg
Level 59
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Yeah, one of the guys who just joined 101st's deserves it more than me for trolling the whole forum with all this drama.
CL 101/Outlaw & Committe discussion: 10/18/2016 17:33:42


Master Turtle 
Level 61
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If Fizzer made an Official clan League that was automated and such, the divisions (or however he organizes it) they would be set. Clans would be promoted/relegated and not interchangeable like it is being done here. I'm not saying that this is "just" but I think it is "fair" since it is the same rule being applied to everyone....

Main point here: Pray that Fizzer someday makes an official clan league.
CL 101/Outlaw & Committe discussion: 10/18/2016 17:38:53

rouxburg
Level 59
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Yeah, I really would like to see XS instead of ONE! in the Clan League Group B this season. That looks like a great idea Master Turtle.

Edited 10/18/2016 17:39:42
CL 101/Outlaw & Committe discussion: 10/18/2016 21:41:54


Njord
Level 60
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@Krunx

"if you only look for the judical situation.
You are judging by the favourable outcome and through my eyes this is simply wrong in case of consistency in law."

just to understand, are you saying that there is a judicial tradition on WL or in CL? And if i have understood correctly that you think that. What kind of tradition is it? since that is quite important if we are to determine what is consistency in law( also what law is it that we need consistency to?).

Edited 10/18/2016 21:45:14
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