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Why tribes are not organisms?: 10/20/2016 12:07:54

[FEL]Chatul
Level 22
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Some people here believe that tribes are organisms which I strongly disagree with. The idea of a tribe as an organism is to consider a tribe to be a multicellular organism and each individual in the tribe as a cell.

The reason I strongly oppose such an idea is that it ignores several key facts:

1.If a multicellular organism is considered to be analogous to a society then it is a very cruel one. Cells in a multicellular organism are frequently killed by other cells due to them getting infected by viruses, are too old or simply they are simply supposed to die (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programmed_cell_death). A multicellular organism is more cruel than Third Reich, Soviet Union, ISIS and North Korea combined since even such entities do not breed people who are supposed to die at a certain age or kill most senior citizens due to their ages.

2.In a multicellular organism there is not a lot of autonomy for each cell compared to that for an individual in a society. Free citizens/subjects (or even slaves) of the most oppressive regimes still have more freedom compared to a cell which usually can not even move away from other cells.

3.Interests of the society should be the sum of interests of its members. There is no inherent reason why a tribe has to exist other than to protect, organize and help its members. If interests of individuals of a tribe improve when the tribe is disbanded then it should just disband. Nobody should ever die for abstract concepts such as tribes because human lives are certainly worth much more than labels.
Why tribes are not organisms?: 10/20/2016 12:46:28


Lolicon love 
Level 56
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Are you high?
Why tribes are not organisms?: 10/20/2016 12:54:18

(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 51
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^No. I was just refuting Karl and Nitr01.
Why tribes are not organisms?: 10/20/2016 12:55:06


Major General Smedley Butler
Level 49
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Are you high?
- downvoted post by (((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Why tribes are not organisms?: 10/20/2016 13:19:07


Major General Smedley Butler
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Are you high?
Why tribes are not organisms?: 10/20/2016 13:39:12


Onoma94
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Are you high?
- downvoted post by (((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Why tribes are not organisms?: 10/20/2016 16:05:20

(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 51
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^The issue is that nobody needs to be loyal to his/her tribe since tribes are almost never as oppressive as a multicellular organism. Also sometimes ironically loyalty can be harmful to survival of the genes of the tribe. In ancient wars those who surrender or escape usually have much better chances to pass on genes of the tribe than those who die in defending the tribe. Genocide is almost never 100% successful due to people hiding, escaping, surrendering and passing as members of other tribes.

Sure there are (evolutionary) benefits of defending a tribe..only if you actually win. Can you always win though? Most ancient forces usually didn't kill those who surrender without giving battle (not even ancient Assyrians and Mongols). Tribes that know when to fight and when not to survive and those that always fight suffer.

Edited 10/20/2016 16:12:06
Why tribes are not organisms?: 10/20/2016 16:27:18

(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 51
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^I agree. However a tribe, albeit authoritarian, is much less oppressive than a multicellular organism. It is more of an alliance of individuals than anything else. Well other than the hereditary part. People who are born in a tribe did not voluntarily join it.

Edited 10/20/2016 16:27:51
Why tribes are not organisms?: 10/20/2016 16:30:08

(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
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^Even a labor camp is not really an organism. Prisoners are more free than cells. Furthermore prisoners usually are not enthusiastic in forced labor they are required to perform which makes labor camps inefficient (that's the same reason why communism has a motivation problem).

The main issue with this analogy is the existence of individual autonomy. Humans have not evolved to the point where individuals are not the basic autonomous units of a society. Individuals have their interests. Individuals do not want to die. Individuals can feel pain. Hence a society is at most a confederation of individuals.

Edited 10/20/2016 16:34:57
Why tribes are not organisms?: 10/20/2016 16:37:37

(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
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^Well, the USSR did not provide a lot of economic incentives (Communist countries were too poor to provide any real incentives). They were in fact also very patriotic and ideological. It's the modern secular West that does so.

Humans are motivated by fear. However it is much better to have some great ideology/virtue to motivate people. I do agree with you on that.
- downvoted post by OxTheAutist
Why tribes are not organisms?: 10/20/2016 17:29:38

(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 51
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^I agree with most of your observations.

However I believe the modern secular West perform and will continue to perform better than most societies and other societies will be more like the secular West in the long run.

Uniting people by some uniform ideals requires strong censorship and indoctrination unlike materialism which is very natural. Any form of indoctrination hampers rational thinking of the indoctrinated. When a society requires enough creativity the benefits of having an enthusiastic society may not outweigh the loss of creativity and loss of benefits from individual autonomy. Your model certainly worked well in the past, however I doubt it will be useful in the future.

Another issue is that there are so many people who aren't motivated by ideals. You and I love ideals even though we disagree. However most people only care about interests, both individual interests and family/tribal interests but not abstract ideals. Ideals are for small groups of individuals and voluntarily-formed social groups. They are not for the public. Any ideal that attempts to spread to the public of any society gets diluted so much that it's almost dead. Soviet Union did not turn everyone into genuine Communists, nor did ISIS turn everyone into genuine Islamists. You can't have the majority of any society to be devoted adherents of <insert ideology/religion/etc> in the long run.

Edited 10/20/2016 17:35:56
Why tribes are not organisms?: 10/20/2016 17:50:29

(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 51
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^

However I believe the modern secular West perform and will continue to perform better than most societies and other societies will be more like the secular West in the long run.

The West is already falling to the Islamic, non-secular East. It's simply a stronger more united society due to the individualistic tendencies of the West which tend to mean we're only thinking for ourselves, not the fate of our people like Muslims do. Collectivism is stronger than individualism.


I was also concerned with whether secular West can fall to Islamism. After some discussions my conclusion is that the West can be safe if it follows correct strategies, the most important of which is to secularize the Muslim world. Promoting science, spreading feminism, promoting female education or just promoting female employment can completely destroy traditional societies and Islam will have to cease to be a viable political force. There is a reason why non-racial counterjihadists such as Pamela Geller promotes feminism in the Muslim world. The traditional Muslim society just like any other traditional societies needs sacrificial and subjugated women to be viable. Freeing women makes it impossible to function and reduces its population as well.

I do recognize that collectivist societies are inherently stronger than individualist ones if they have the same level of development. However we can use modern technology to make collectivist societies impossible to preserve by promoting individualism everywhere so that we can keep enjoying our individualist lives.


Any form of indoctrination hampers rational thinking of the indoctrinated. When a society requires enough creativity the benefits of having an enthusiastic society may not outweigh the loss of creativity and benefits from individual autonomy

Pls expand on this, not quite sure what you mean. However, I think rationality puts down creativity as we have seen in the last few decades. As people in the West continue to think increasingly along the lines of what makes sense rather how they feel, we see such atrocities as modern art, the LGBTQ+ community, etc.


Interesting! Well I'm personally against irrationalism. We have a lot of scientific development which certainly does not benefit from irrationalism.

By the way, speaking of the LGBTQ+ community, its very existence actually reduces the amount of LGBTQ+ people in the long run. In the past the LGBTQ+ are usually forced to be heterosexual/bisexual in actions and hence they used to breed. Absolute sexual freedom will actually ironically make strict lesbian/gay/transexualism an evolutionary disadvantage. Ironically the world may become less LGBT than ever in the future simply because they are allowed to do whatever they want and do not have kids as a result.


Your model certainly worked well in the past, however I doubt it will be useful in the future.

If it worked well in the past, it will work well in the future. Humanity is on a constant spin cycle so to say and just like democracy came to dominate, soon authoritarianism will again (it already is, hence the alt-right's rise) and soon after that democracy will return.


What I meant is that the current level of science and technology may no longer sustain a local, authoritarian or collectivist society any more. Cars, trains and airplanes allow children to escape from their traditional families and wives to escape from their husbands. The internet allows people from poorer, authoritarian societies to see secular Westerners having fun. Social media and forums (including WL) allow people from all parts of the world to interact with each other in a friendly way and make strong hatred increasingly less likely. They also make censorship hard. (Even Saudi Arabia does not ban English or Warlight so secular Western habits naturally influence them).

Furthermore even if it is possible to keep a society collectivist and authoritarian it may still underperform in the long run because individuals are so dumbed down by the collectivist society that they can't function normally as individuals which lead to a reduction of scientific performance.

Edited 10/20/2016 17:59:55
Why tribes are not organisms?: 10/20/2016 17:52:27

(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 51
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ISIS does not focus on the material world, instead it focus on afterlife. I have never seen an extreme puritan religious society that is viable in the long run due to the simple fact that most people are inherently not devoted adherents of religions/ideologies. Nor will ISIS be an exception.


Another issue is that there are so many people who aren't motivated by ideals. You and I love ideals even though we disagree. However most people only care about interests, both individual interests and family/tribal interests but not abstract ideals.

I disagree to an extent, however, through propaganda I think we can change this norm, the Hitler Youth is a great example of this in that the state raises children from birth on ideals and nothing else. They become stronger and less selfish than their counterparts and it's truly an amazing thing.

That's interesting if it's true. However you need to make sure that individual creativity do not suffer through propaganda. Not thinking is bad for any society including totalitarian ones because even the most totalitarian societies need people who do science, technology and develop weapons. Enthusiasm helps in terms of motivation but mere enthusiasm does not result in new ideas.

Also National Socialism in a German sense is really just an extension of family interests (tribalism). As long as you can trick people into thinking that everyone in your in-group is related genetically it works. Italian fascism may be a more interesting example if it worked but from what I have read it did not work (Italians did not like Mussolini enough to breed for Italy) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_for_Births)

Edited 10/20/2016 18:14:24
- downvoted post by Spenglerian Traditionalist
Why tribes are not organisms?: 10/20/2016 19:00:01

(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 51
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@Paugers Let's continue. Karl is ignored. I'm not saying that Italians did not like Mussolini but they certainly did not like him enough to breed for Italy. Look at the birth rates.

Edited 10/20/2016 19:00:43
- downvoted post by Жұқтыру
- downvoted post by Spenglerian Traditionalist
Why tribes are not organisms?: 10/21/2016 05:20:33


The Lord
Level 54
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Tabby is not high, he is just extremely rational as always. We are just too low to understand his wisdom.
Why tribes are not organisms?: 10/21/2016 13:58:04

E Masterpierround
Level 56
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You've all been asking the wrong question. Here's the right one:

How high are you?
Why tribes are not organisms?: 10/26/2016 16:42:31

wct
Level 56
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[Downvoted all non-constructive noisy comments.]

There are ways in which tribes are like organisms. There are ways in which they are not. Analogies are pretty much always flawed to some extent. Sometimes they are useful, and sometimes they are not.

If you try to define the analogy more carefully, like "tribes are like organisms in ways X, Y, and Z", then you'll likely find more useful grounds for discussion and debate.
- downvoted post by Spenglerian Traditionalist
Why tribes are not organisms?: 10/27/2016 00:49:28

(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 51
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This is actually an idea worth debating. Furthermore it is an idea Karl promoted. Several years ago I thought about the opposite problem, namely organisms as societies. I concluded that multicellular organisms are horrible societies. I never thought about societies as organisms.
- downvoted post by Spenglerian Traditionalist
Why tribes are not organisms?: 10/31/2016 20:51:14

(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 51
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There are literally collectivists that believe this nonsense.
- downvoted post by satanic
- downvoted post by Von Jewburg
- downvoted post by OxTheAutist
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