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Why genocidal threats are real: 11/5/2016 04:36:23

[FEL]Chatul
Level 22
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In human history, most wars were and are not fought with genocide as their intention. Even though massacres and slavery were common, complete extermination of any ancestry-based group or pseudo-ancestry-based group (I mean the so-called ethnic groups since they aren't as homogeneous as what they claim to be) is usually not a goal. Submission and sometimes slavery perpetuate the existence of subjugated groups while they keep living and reproducing. Intermarriage promotes alliances of groups or at least patronage of one group over another. Even sexual slavery to some extant can ironically result in alliances of groups simply because most men love their wives and concubines. (Ottoman Empire is a good example where abducted and enslaved women can later ironically hold power) Men also evolutionarily do not benefit a lot from exterminating everyone else, at least fertile women since the continued existence of fertile women, even from formerly hostile but subjugated tribes, help spread their genes.

However I personally believe that there is actually evolutionary incentive in mass genocide. Here by genocide, I'm not necessarily talking about genocide of "ethnic groups" or "races", neither of which are genetically well-defined due to high levels of passing and assimilation at least at the level of "ethnic groups". For example someone with Y-chromosome haplogroup R or O may believe that there is no reason Y-chromosome haplogroup B should ever be allowed to exist outside labs simply for being a competing human gene that he does not possess. By eliminating competing genes he keeps more share of Planet Earth for himself and his offsprings.

There are also cultural and geopolitical incentives of such evils. A complete or almost complete genocide is probably one of the best ways to ensure a perpetual occupation of a territory by any group even though almost nobody even attempt to commit this crime. It is even more complete than a large-scale expulsion and is irreversible. Imagine that National Socialist Germany took over Planet Earth and murdered everyone other than Germans. What would have happened is that all remaining humans might actually declare that the word "German" and "human" are identical because they in fact would be. There would have been no non-Germans existing even if Germans themselves may later fragment into multiple groups. What is clear is that every single city and village on Planet Earth would have been 100% German even long after the National Socialists are gone. However availability of assimilation provides an alternative and benign option that has worked from time to time and discourages mass genocide. This was even true in Generalplan Ost by National Socialists since they had provision for some portions of almost every non-Jewish European group to be spared. For example 50% Czechs were supposed to be Germanized which would never result in complete destruction of gene pool of people identifying as Czechs even if all existing Czechs intermarry and assimilate into Germans.

I personally believe that mass genocides are more likely in the future than in the past. One key reason is the development of science and technology which makes it possible to cause mass destruction at relatively low costs. Another reason is that small groups and even individuals have more opportunity to inflict such harms now. Rise of feminism also makes it more likely for strategies that involve both genders in the same ancestry-based groups benefitting succeed unlike in the past where male warriors and bandits would rather rape and enslave women instead of murdering them all which ironically leads to mixed children, improved relations between conquerors and conquered, assimilation and continued existence of genes of the conquered. A mass genocidal evolutionary strategy in essence involves the genocidal men to curb their own evolutionary and biological tendency to rape conquered women without murdering them and instead only breed with their own women while murdering all out-group members, hostile or not. The last reason is genetics. It is actually possible to use genes to redefine races in a less intuitive but much more rigid, scientific way. In the past when genetical information was not clear it was usually possible for passing to happen. However when we redefine races using genetics no amount of assimilation and maybe intermarriage/gene dilution can hide the fact that one of your greatgreatgreatgreatgrandmothers is of <Insert genetics-based group> and hence a genocidal group wants to kill you.

Edited 11/5/2016 04:48:29
Why genocidal threats are real: 11/5/2016 04:53:06


Hostile
Level 58
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Genocide slows global warming.
It is also a way to redistribute the wealth. Less people, more wealth per people in some way...


War rape is more probably more common than sexual slavery. A way to demoralize your enemy.
It is not an evolutionary advantage because all the children created from rape are "bastards" so they are meant to die. You also get more odds of catching disease. Having children with a slave is avoided.
Why genocidal threats are real: 11/5/2016 04:54:43

[FEL]Chatul
Level 22
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One observation

The territory of a nation state usually depends on demographics more than history. For example Kosovo is not in Serbia now despite it being historically a part of Serbia and important in Serbian history simply due to the fact that most people there don't identify as Serbs. There is no movement in Kaliningrad to secede from Russia and join Germany despite it is historically German simply due to the almost non-existence of Germans there. If you empty Moscow and repopulate it with Poles, you will have Poland there or at least a separatist movement to make Moscow a part of Poland.
Why genocidal threats are real: 11/5/2016 04:57:15

[FEL]Chatul
Level 22
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^^War rape ironically does not end the conquered nation genetically. It just creates more mixed children and prolong the existence of the conquered nation genetically since they look and behave more similar to conquerors.

"Meant to die"
Good luck catching all of them and murdering them. Now the rapist actually has an evolutionary incentive to cooperate with the conquered people and NOT murder them.

"Having children with a slave is avoided"
Good luck enforcing that on your own men. That's pretty hard. Even with modern contraception and abortion (with infanticide as a last option) an individual male conqueror has huge evolutionary incentive to have kids with slaves. This not just spread your genes but more importantly spread your genes to different genetic and cultural groups. Empires come and go. Maybe one day your own group will be massacred by others while former slaves will be liberated or even be new masters somewhere. By having kids with slaves you are putting your eggs (or genes) in more than one genetic and cultural basket which makes extermination of all your offsprings much harder.

Edited 11/5/2016 05:08:27
Why genocidal threats are real: 11/5/2016 04:59:47


Hostile
Level 58
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If you do get too many *proper* children, it is possible that they would just kill each other over family fortune distribution.

This is why populations had some growth control. There is like the problem of splitting the farmland in the medieval ages.


Germans wanted to be 100 % purists and this is only a small part of Germans. Germans *Nazis* killed the physically disabled, the mentally disabled and everything else that was a cost to *society*.

There are a lot of examples of that as :

School mathematics books posed such questions as: "The construction of a lunatic asylum costs 6 million marks. How many houses at 15,000 marks each could have been built for that amount?"

(The Intranet : http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/disabled.html)
Why genocidal threats are real: 11/5/2016 05:01:09

[FEL]Chatul
Level 22
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^Killing all disabled people of your own group splits and demoralizes your own group. There are people among your in-group who socially and evolutionarily benefit from the existence of those who happen to have some disability.

Furthermore if you really kill everyone with any disability including veterans people have much less incentive to fight for you. Not many people wants to fight hard for their in-group, get injured in the battle and get death penalty as a result. Don't ever discourage your own zealous members by threatening to turn on them. Ever.

Edited 11/5/2016 05:11:56
Why genocidal threats are real: 11/5/2016 05:10:26


Hostile
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Well, after WW2 Veterans were really pissed. They were not paid what promised. They made some protestations and not very successful.

This was the Bonus Army in the USA.

"patriotism... bought and paid for is not patriotism"
(Wikipedia)

It does not look like they were paid much afterwards for their military service.
I think the "Adjusted Compensation Payment Act" was some sort of big scam.
The war veterans only got like less than 10 % of what they were supposed to get.
Why genocidal threats are real: 11/5/2016 05:11:34

[FEL]Chatul
Level 22
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^This is still very different from death penalty for all disabled veterans.

Let's return to the topic.

I have also added more arguments about having kids with slaves. Spreading genes to more than one ethnic, cultural or genetic groups is very useful evolutionarily. For example if 50% of your kids are Russians in Russia, 25% are English in Britain while 25% are Pashtuns in Afghanistan it's very hard to exterminate you and all your offsprings. Even with a global nuclear war that devastates Russia and Britain some of your descendants may still exist in Afghanistan. On the other hand if you and all your offspring are Amish and only live within one village you may be exterminated evolutionarily in the first religious pogrom that affects your village.

Feminism is necessary to prevent subjugated nations from surviving genetically through intermarriage, assimilation and even rape. You have to strictly control sexuality of your men and not allow even one girl to survive and pass on genes of her group through her beauty. You also have to be completely ruthless towards collaborators and those who voluntarily submit to you, at least evolutionarily (such as sterilization instead of death). Well even sterilization does not work if people can pass on their genes without the usual sex-pregnancy-kids route.

Edited 11/5/2016 05:24:10
Why genocidal threats are real: 11/5/2016 05:34:16


Hostile
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The Romans killed their soldiers through decimation if they didn't perform well.
Take some legion and take out one tenth of it.

Catch 22 is a book where pilots were pretty much forced to die because of the odds. Dozen of bombings each day every day.

WIKIPEDIA EXTRACT :

Bishop von Galen had the decree printed in his newspaper on 9 March 1941. Subsequent arrests of priests and seizure of Jesuit properties by the Gestapo in his home city of Munster, convinced Galen that the caution advised by his superior had become pointless. On 6, 13 and 20 July 1941, Galen spoke against the seizure of properties, and expulsions of nuns, monks and religious and criticised the euthanasia programme. In an attempt to cow Galen, the police raided his sister's convent, and detained her in the cellar. She escaped the confinement, and Galen, who had also received news of the imminent removal of further patients, launched his most audacious challenge on the regime in a 3 August sermon. He declared the murders to be illegal, and said that he had formally accused those responsible for murders in his diocese in a letter to the public prosecutor. The policy opened the way to the murder of all "unproductive people", like old horses or cows, including invalid war veterans: "Who can trust his doctor anymore?", he asked. He declared, wrote Evans, that Catholics must "avoid those who blasphemed, attacked their religion, or brought about the death of innocent men and women. Otherwise they would become involved in their guilt".[10] Galen said that it was the duty of Christians to resist the taking of human life, even if it meant losing their own lives.[11]


"Kill invalid war veterans"
This proves my point a little. Seems like some laws/acts were enacted that allows and incentives to kill invalid veterans.


I also read that *better* medical knowledge had the consequence of treating *soldiers* as disposable in one way. Handicapped soldiers were encouraged to participate in the war effort by becoming something else like a radio operator and stuff. The book I red talked about the Tyranny of the Technique. Doctors becoming some of technicians being able to save people that are almost meant to die (head trauma, spine problems, ...). It dehumanizes the soldiers and makes them like machine.

I believe it it is about "Technocracy". There is also this guy called TAYLOR that created taylorism.
Taylorism is ingrained in the corporate philosophy. It *was* an inspiration for Stakhonivism which is really bad.

Stakhonovism is an extreme but Taylorism isn't great either. In Taylorism, the worker must do the most efficient movements possible to do work. The idea was also to make each worker to make a single thing, a single movement. That worker will in theory become a master at performing this movement. He will therefore achieve greater *efficiency*.

Efficiency is a wrong term to use. There is no really [Output Power / Input Power] in this case but close enough. Taylorism is a very weird theory that does not really work in practice.





http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=622890

More proof of murdering veterans.

So is possible to do it without much consequences.

Edited 11/5/2016 05:37:21
Why genocidal threats are real: 11/5/2016 05:54:01

(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 51
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Technocracy isn't a bad idea. The term "mean to die" does not mean anything since many illnesses curable now would have been terminal 300 years ago, nor does curing people "dehumanize" them. It merely improves them.

Oh the Third Reich literally killed some of its wounded veterans. This was a very bad idea even in a pure Machiavellian sense.

Edited 11/5/2016 05:57:23
Why genocidal threats are real: 11/5/2016 16:02:47


Hostile
Level 58
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Pervitin -> German Super-Soldier ...
LSD & else -> USA Super-Soldier ...

Funny fact.


Competing genes => genome diversity => diversity is generally a big advantage.

Like if for some reason, the Earth would be frozen. The Eskimos would take over Earth while everybody would die.
Why genocidal threats are real: 11/5/2016 17:00:28

(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 51
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^Are you saying that one has to be overcome evolution and human nature to perform complete genocides on a global scale, may I ask?

Then there won't be too much incentive to commit it in the first place. Maybe only when it's mandatory in some religions.
Why genocidal threats are real: 11/5/2016 20:15:14

[FEL]Chatul
Level 22
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Seriously I have basically invented the most destructive ideology that has ever existed on Planet Earth even though I oppose it. This ideology includes two parts:

1. Complete extermination of all but a small in-group. Outsiders can be hostile or neutral or even supportive but it does not matter. All must die. This small in-group could be an "ethnic group", a "race", a religious group, a company and its employees, a small group of friends, a family, a couple or just one person.
2. Willingness to risk destruction of the entire human civilization including death of oneself to achieve it.

Ethnic nationalism may provoke a lot of hatred. However ethnic nationalists/racists usually do not keep their men controlled enough and ruthless enough to actually commit such a complete genocide. Also ethnic nationalists at least desire to preserve themselves. Here no hatred is even necessary. Outsiders must not exist not because they are evil or have done any harm. They must not exist for no reason other than being competitors or potential competitors.

I believe the only way such an ideology can be implemented is through a violent religion, by a small group of conspirators for themselves (for example one dude or a small group of close friends) or by someone who just wants to destroy humanity at any cost, so these are what we should watch out for.

Edited 11/5/2016 20:28:35
Why genocidal threats are real: 11/5/2016 21:04:08


Spenglerian Traditionalist
Level 47
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tl;dr
Why genocidal threats are real: 11/5/2016 23:14:09


OxTheAutist 
Level 58
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I missed you Tabby!

Didn't read a word but I noticed how long it was and I'm impressed. Top form!
Why genocidal threats are real: 11/5/2016 23:22:33


Жұқтыру
Level 55
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Belgian Gentleman does it better.
Why genocidal threats are real: 11/5/2016 23:27:20

(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 51
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^^You probably should read them.:3 These are nothing compared to analysis by social scientists and historians but probably much better than most threads.

Edited 11/5/2016 23:28:22
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