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Deployment move order should be random, not cyclic: 11/29/2016 19:17:21


Nex
Level 60
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In cyclic games, determining move order can mean the difference between a win and a loss. Usually that is done by watching the other player's moves to see if his first move gets priority in a position he does not have an order priority card (or, if an order priority card was played by both players, move order is used normally).

But the pre-move deployments for every turn also follow the same move order, apparently. So, if you watch closely to see the other person's deployments next to you, you can actually determine move order from that even if the other player tries to hide the move order by always making first move out of sight, even if no other information is given. This does not seem very logical to me, as this is extremely important information, yet some turns your only deployments would be within view of your opponent.


Now for a real example, from two titans on the 1v1 ladder:

https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=12354779

Turn 5, Ollie now knows for a fact that he gets second order on odd turns and first order on evens because Buns' deployment to Australia happened before any of his own deployments. Looking at his moves, there was no way for him to know prior to this. Unfortunately for Buns, he was unable to see the truth of the cycle until turn 7 when Ollie's first deployment occurred before his.

Does this seem fair? Does this correctly fit within the logic of strategic 1v1? Discussion is needed on the matter.

This also seems important because order priority does not affect deployment order. There is simply no way to obscure the move cycle without deliberately making first deployment out of sight of your opponent, which seems a bit unnecessary.

Edited 11/29/2016 19:18:39
Deployment move order should be random, not cyclic: 11/29/2016 19:20:23


master of desaster 
Level 64
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you can Change to order of your deployements just like you can decide when you move armies. i don't see a Problem here.
Deployment move order should be random, not cyclic: 11/29/2016 19:22:37


Nex
Level 60
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Yes, but deployment order has no useful purpose in this game, so why would it be necessary to worry about the order in which you deploy armies???
Deployment move order should be random, not cyclic: 11/29/2016 19:26:58


Richard Sharpe 
Level 59
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Initially I thought this was pointless but after reading it, I can see your point. It is possible for an opponent to determine turn order based on your deployment... it would only happen in certain scenarios (only deploying to front lines on a turn with first order) but it can still happen. The only surefire way to avoid it is to deploy an army away from the frontlines which arguably wastes that army, or at least alters your budgeting.
Deployment move order should be random, not cyclic: 11/29/2016 19:27:51


master of desaster 
Level 64
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ollie could have known the move order already after turn 3 cause he had an even number of moves before the attack of buns to southpole happened. buns knew it after turn 5 cause he moved once before ollie had a movement

edit: same is about deployments. if you have an even number of deployements before your Opponent deploys, he has first move that turn. if odd, you have first move that turn

Edited 11/29/2016 19:29:16
Deployment move order should be random, not cyclic: 11/29/2016 19:30:06


Nex
Level 60
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There are some positions where you can prove that not deploying full income bordering your opponent would result in a loss, I think, so what we should decide is whether this is acceptable to strategic 1v1 settings. I'm thinking about positions early in the game for example, let's say you and your opponent have very close picks to each other, and the placement of 1 army in the wrong place could be a huge error. Is deployment order really an acceptable reason to have to potentially lose a game? It has no use if it is not cyclic xD
Deployment move order should be random, not cyclic: 11/29/2016 19:43:31


Richard Sharpe 
Level 59
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While I see no need to have any particular order to deployments (why not just deploy all of one player's armies, then all of the next?), I also don't see this as being an overly concerning issue. If anything you could argue having it is a reward to the more attentive players... I know I certainly never paid any attention to deployment order.
Deployment move order should be random, not cyclic: 11/29/2016 19:45:31


Nex
Level 60
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I just discovered it, and will definitely use it in the future, it's just a bit absurd to think that's the only reason I would ever bother looking at deployments. Lol
Deployment move order should be random, not cyclic: 11/29/2016 21:34:18

player12345
Level 60
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Very good observation here. There is no doubt that deployment order information has the potential to determine the outcome of a cyclic order game.

Was this behavior intentionally programmed into WL?

Are there any cards that can be positioned in the middle of the deployment orders?

Edited 11/29/2016 21:37:55
- downvoted post by MightySpeck (a Koala)
Deployment move order should be random, not cyclic: 11/29/2016 22:32:50


Beren • apex 
Level 62
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This is common knowledge to anyone at the top levels of the game. In fact it's spelled out in both Norman and Odin's guides.
Deployment move order should be random, not cyclic: 11/30/2016 00:03:57


Quicksilver
Level 55
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+1 for learning

+1 to Beren's O_o

+1 to motd pointing out that the rabbit hole is even deeper than you think ...
Deployment move order should be random, not cyclic: 11/30/2016 14:42:07


master of desaster 
Level 64
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Thank you quicksand!
Deployment move order should be random, not cyclic: 11/30/2016 15:15:24


Math Wolf 
Level 62
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I also see this as "it's not a bug, it's a feature" kind of thing. It's for example often very easy to determine an opponents income if they first deploy elsewhere, then at the border. So if you want to hide move order by deploy elsewhere first, you'd have to sacrifice some extra knowledge to the opponent. Managing and collecting information is important in this game and all the small intrinsic tools that allow players to do so are a plus imho.
Deployment move order should be random, not cyclic: 11/30/2016 18:43:58


Quicksilver
Level 55
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One day, when I'm good enough, people will confuse Quicksand with Quicksilver :P
Deployment move order should be random, not cyclic: 11/30/2016 21:27:30


ps 
Level 59
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i would add that the order should explicit on screen once it's logically deduced from previous turns, either lost first pick, saw first deployment or move by opponent, etc. it's just annoying to have to go back and check it every time you're planning a new turn, especially in multiday games where it's easy to forget who has first turn when. i'm thinking of the top left text where it says "it's your turn", should clearly say if move order is random, if first move priority is yet undetermined or if you have it or not, i know it says the orders of everyone on cyclic team games when you hover over the ?, but it could be improved further.
Deployment move order should be random, not cyclic: 11/30/2016 21:32:28


master of desaster 
Level 64
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It gives away the order in no luck cyclic only and i dislike it. Put in the effort or don't expect to be successful. I don't want to play the games no skill where it tells you everything (turn order, armies you kill, opponents income after it's clear what he got).

Edited 11/30/2016 21:32:53
Deployment move order should be random, not cyclic: 11/30/2016 21:33:12


Richard Sharpe 
Level 59
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PS, I agree with your position with one limitation. It should be up to the player to enter that information if it is a cyclic game. Just because it has been determined by the gameplay, that doesn't mean the player has realized that determination.

Allow for the player to enter when they think they have first turn and base it off that moving forwards. For a good player it would provide the same outcome you advocated while not giving away free information to the less perceptive.
Deployment move order should be random, not cyclic: 11/30/2016 21:57:24


Min34 
Level 58
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One day, when I'm good enough, people will confuse Quicksand with Quicksilver :P


Just like one day MoD will be good enough to not be confused with MotD?
Deployment move order should be random, not cyclic: 12/1/2016 00:01:59

Master of the Dead 
Level 62
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I also see this as "it's not a bug, it's a feature" kind of thing. It's for example often very easy to determine an opponents income if they first deploy elsewhere, then at the border. So if you want to hide move order by deploy elsewhere first, you'd have to sacrifice some extra knowledge to the opponent. Managing and collecting information is important in this game and all the small intrinsic tools that allow players to do so are a plus imho.
+1

@OP,
This is a great feature which adds so much to the game. So much information can be extracted in team games! It is definitely fair in my opinion. It also allows you to play a lot of mind games/intimidate opponents ;)

I can see where you're coming from though. It feels like "hidden" knowledge, but that's why you have a sub-forum for Strategy :)
Deployment move order should be random, not cyclic: 12/5/2016 03:50:47


Semicedevine
Level 60
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yea no it should be cyclic

because at least with cyclic you still have the power to determine whether or not you want to hide move order by sacrificing intel to the opponent (as math wolf said)

sure it's luck based, but the important thing here is that you get to make a decision

just like when you're trying to outplay an opponent, you have to get lucky with predicts that you make

compare this to random move order where that decision is now in the hands of WL's RNG system... and you can't do anything about it

but then again both of them involve chance, but cyclic order is better because at least it doesn't have the tendency to every once in a blue moon give one player 1st order for 10/12 turns (has happened to me before, i know how it is)
Deployment move order should be random, not cyclic: 12/5/2016 13:01:46


ℳℛᐤƬrαńɋℰ✕
Level 55
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@Nex
The only problem with this "feature" is, that you discovered it a 3-years after joining and playing almost 3000 games. There are other nifty features that some players consider vital and strategic information aside of this - some I assume deliberately don´t talk about these. What I want to say, is that most players never consider or discover them. If warlight wants to be pure strategy game, it should reveal and teach players all possible ways of information gathering, hiding and how to make those moves. Warlight leaves those out of Tutorial and most of them are not listed in Warlight-Wiki.

I do not regard it strategic, when some game mechanisms are not teached to new-players. Neither I see that to be the case of "only pro-s needed feature". When a player wants to know, it should be public. Not sure how to make it done - forum post is not a solution as not everyone´s first choice of information about the game. Game mechanisms should be plain and simple and not discover-able in that sense.

Deployment should be public for sure! To see what were previous armies and what a person adds to it. It is really good information. And also the order is, because in some players case it reveals a lot about how they value certain territories by distributing first and dispersing leftovers.

@ps
I have thought about that also.
I don´t find it strategic, nor expect to gain from that, if a person just can´t read the log and deduce it. Probably the game ain´t worth it then. So I agree with you - especially as I cant add any notes to in-game and have to use .txt file system which for me is only solution thus far to write down opponents moves and other related info.
The only problem (solvable) I see, is that the text should appear only to players, who´s log reveal it: taking info from picking and move orders.
Deployment move order should be random, not cyclic: 12/5/2016 13:53:24


Nex
Level 60
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You're forgetting the alts. It's ~6,000 1v1s. And I'm still a noob ^_^
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