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Posts 1 - 26 of 26   
an introduction to logic: 12/19/2016 15:33:51


Wally Balls 
Level 58
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previous discussion: https://www.warlight.net/Forum/224405-introduction-logic

a lot of people in this forum like to attempt to have debates about various topics, but don't have even a basic understanding of how logic works. it is my aim that this post will help them begin to form coherent arguments.

these are the four most common logical fallacies i see committed here:

strawman argument -- attacking an argument that was not made, rather than addressing the argument that was made.

ad hominem attack -- making a personal attack and pretending that is an argument, rather than addressing the argument that was made.

red herring -- bringing up something unrelated and irrelevant, rather than addressing the argument that was made.

genetic fallacy -- attacking the history of the person making the argument, rather than addressing the argument that was made.

notice anything these all have in common? in each case, the argument that was made was not addressed. if you wish to actually debate constructively and with some semblance of intelligence and coherence, you need to address the argument that was made. If you're not addressing the argument made, you're not even in the game. you're just babbling irrelevant bullshit and making a fool of yourself.

i was going to provide some examples but then I realized this forum is full of stubborn trolls who don't have even a basic grasp of logic, who will not heed or likely even be able to understand my advice, so they'll provide the examples for us. i'll identify fallacies in the thread as they are committed.
an introduction to logic: 12/19/2016 15:58:17


timon92 
Level 62
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This is a good introduction to logic: http://www.springer.com/la/book/9781447121756
an introduction to logic: 12/19/2016 16:18:11


Wally Balls 
Level 58
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hi timon92, thank you for demonstrating a red herring. bringing up irrelevant nonsense. mathematical logic, the subfield of mathematics exploring the applications of formal logic to mathematics, is distinct from logic, the systematic study of the form of arguments.
an introduction to logic: 12/19/2016 16:50:43


Njord 
Level 61
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well the first 60 p seems to be about first order logic so.... and that is likely an introduction to what it is, since it is needed if you are to understand anything about mathematical logic

Edited 12/19/2016 16:52:53
an introduction to logic: 12/19/2016 17:04:13


Beren • apex 
Level 63
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Mathematical logic is the foundation of any logical argument. A thorough understanding of mathematical logic is very valuable to anyone attempting to make sound logical points. It helps one understand what combinations of information allow you to draw new conclusions.

Of course it doesn't help in generating your axioms in the real world, so you can have a good understanding of logic and build up a self-consistent worldview which is still based on nonsense. Nonetheless, without the formal definitions of logic there would be no way to prove that conclusions based on evidence are valid or unjustifiable.

Timon's post is therefore not irrelevant.
an introduction to logic: 12/19/2016 17:08:01


master of desaster 
Level 64
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I smell fallacy by reading berens post
an introduction to logic: 12/19/2016 17:12:06


Жұқтыру
Level 55
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Mathematical logic is the foundation of any logical argument.


nice strawman
an introduction to logic: 12/19/2016 17:18:34


Wally Balls 
Level 58
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see this is why red herrings are bad, it takes you to entirely new places and you forget what the discussion is all about.

this thread is not about math. go start a math thread if you want to discuss math.

here we are discussing common logical fallacies committed by trolls in this forum.
an introduction to logic: 12/19/2016 17:20:48


Njord 
Level 61
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still there seem to be a introduction to first order logic in the book, hence making timons message relevant
an introduction to logic: 12/19/2016 17:22:53


Wally Balls 
Level 58
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Timon's post is therefore not irrelevant.


It's irrelevant to my argument. It does not address it. It does not present reasons why I'm right or I'm wrong.

If your argument is that water is wet, and I say water is the main ingredient in beer, that's a red herring. It doesn't matter that I discussed water. I did not address your argument.

Edited 12/19/2016 17:23:57
an introduction to logic: 12/19/2016 17:23:00


Beren • apex 
Level 63
Report
Maybe you should have titled your post "an introduction to online arguments" rather than "an introduction to logic" then.
an introduction to logic: 12/19/2016 17:25:21


Wally Balls 
Level 58
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Another red herring. Irrelevant nonsense. My argument is clear in the body of my post.
an introduction to logic: 12/19/2016 17:26:39


Wally Balls 
Level 58
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Maybe you should called your clan 'apex the warlight.net clan' instead of 'apex' since apex has other meanings.
an introduction to logic: 12/19/2016 17:30:43


Njord 
Level 61
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but i dont understand what the red herrings that you are mentioning are deraling us from? you simply state some fallacies, what is there to discuss? they are correct, we have known that for around 2.500 years

Edited 12/19/2016 17:34:25
an introduction to logic: 12/19/2016 17:41:06


Njord 
Level 61
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so given that there is nothing to discuss there can't be any red herrings by definition
an introduction to logic: 12/19/2016 17:42:32


Wally Balls 
Level 58
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just because you agree doesn't mean there is nothing to discuss. there is nothing for you to discuss.

"i agree, now i'm changing the subject" would not be a red herring. nobody has said that.
an introduction to logic: 12/19/2016 17:44:25


Njord 
Level 61
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ok..... who disagrees then?
an introduction to logic: 12/19/2016 17:46:18


Njord 
Level 61
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also what do you want to have discussed.... you do not mention that
an introduction to logic: 12/19/2016 17:48:16


Wally Balls 
Level 58
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a lot of people in this forum like to attempt to have debates about various topics, but don't have even a basic understanding of how logic works.


If you're not addressing the argument made, you're not even in the game. you're just babbling irrelevant bullshit and making a fool of yourself.


this forum is full of stubborn trolls who don't have even a basic grasp of logic, who will not heed or likely even be able to understand my advice


You really think there is nobody in this forum who would disagree with any of that?
an introduction to logic: 12/19/2016 17:50:54


Wally Balls 
Level 58
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The whole point of the four fallacies is that they don't address the argument. So that people are not saying specifically that they disagree with me is to be expected. That is the natural result of their red herrings and genetic fallacies and strawmen and ad hominems. They dodge my arguments with that shit.
an introduction to logic: 12/19/2016 18:00:02


Njord 
Level 61
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no it is to vague to make someone disagree, you need to say it about someone specific...... and well the last part is just you saying someone is stupid and you are more intelligent than someone, which is likely true, since given everyone you are likely better at understanding fallacies then least one, which is the measurement here.
an introduction to logic: 12/19/2016 18:15:41


Njord 
Level 61
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but ok then, i will disagree whit you. well not so much disagree whit you as correct you. all of the fallacies you are mentioning are redharrings, so given that this is an introduction to logic then it would be better to write that there are red herrings and that those three are the ones that you think are the most common.


Also it is not optimal to call red herring logical fallacies since it is not a question of the logical structure of the arguments but instead a problem whit the content not being relevant. if you say logical fallacies then it is to be expected that you are talking about mistakes in the formel structure of the arguments

also in your last post you make the fallacy of defective induction and hasty generalization

Edited 12/19/2016 18:43:32
an introduction to logic: 12/19/2016 18:16:50


Min34 
Level 59
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an introduction to logic: 12/19/2016 18:47:34


AWESOMEGUY 
Level 63
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Speak to Me
"I've been mad for fucking years, absolutely years, been
over the edge for yonks, been working me buns off for bands..."
"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the
most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even
if you're not mad..."

Breathe (In the Air)
Breathe, breathe in the air
Don't be afraid to care
Leave but don't leave me
Look around and choose your own ground

Long you live and high you fly
And smiles you'll give and tears you'll cry
And all you touch and all you see
Is all your life will ever be

Run, rabbit run
Dig that hole, forget the sun
And when at last the work is done
Don't sit down it's time to dig another one

For long you live and high you fly But only if you ride the tide
And balanced on the biggest wave
You race towards an early grave

On The Run
"Live for today, gone tomorrow, that's me, HaHaHaaaaaa!"

Time
Ticking away the moments that make up a dull day
You fritter and waste the hours in an offhand way
Kicking around on a piece of ground in your home town
Waiting for someone or something to show you the way

Tired of lying in the sunshine staying home to watch the rain
You are young and life is long and there is time to kill today
And then one day you find ten years have got behind you
No one told you when to run, you missed the starting gun

So you run and you run to catch up with the sun but it's sinking
Racing around to come up behind you again
The sun is the same in a relative way but you're older,
Shorter of breath and one day closer to death

Every year is getting shorter never seem to find the time
Plans that either come to naught or half a page of scribbled lines
Hanging on in quiet desperation is the English way
The time is gone, the song is over,
Thought I'd something more to say...

Breathe (Reprise)
Home, home again
I like to be here when I can
When I come home cold and tired
It's good to warm my bones beside the fire
Far away across the field
The tolling of the iron bell
Calls the faithful to their knees
To hear the softly spoken magic spells

The Great Gig in the Sky
"And I am not frightened of dying, any time will do, I
don't mind. Why should I be frightened of dying?
There's no reason for it, you've gotta go sometime."
"I never said I was frightened of dying."

Money
Money, get away
Get a good job with good pay and you're okay
Money, it's a gas
Grab that cash with both hands and make a stash
New car, caviar, four star daydream,
Think I'll buy me a football team

Money, get back
I'm all right Jack keep your hands off of my stack
Money, it's a hit
Don't give me that do goody good bullshit
I'm in the high-fidelity first class traveling set
And I think I need a Lear jet

Money, it's a crime
Share it fairly but don't take a slice of my pie
Money, so they say
Is the root of all evil today
But if you ask for a raise it's no surprise
That they're giving none away.

"HuHuh! I was in the right!"
"Yes, absolutely in the right!"
"I certainly was in the right!"
"You was definitely in the right.
That geezer was cruising for a bruising!"
"Yeah!"
"Why does anyone do anything?"
"I don't know, I was really drunk at the time!"
"I was just telling him, he couldn't get into number 2.
He was asking why he wasn't coming up on freely,
After I was yelling and screaming and
Telling him why he wasn't coming up on freely.
It came as a heavy blow, but we sorted the matter out"

Us and Them
Us, and them
And after all we're only ordinary men.
Me, and you.
God only knows it's not what we would choose to do.
Forward he cried from the rear
and the front rank died.
And the general sat and the lines on the map
moved from side to side.

Black and blue
And who knows which is which and who is who
Up and down
But in the end it's only round and round
Haven't you heard it's a battle of words
The poster bearer cried
Listen son, said the man with the gun
There's room for you inside

"I mean, they're not gunna kill ya, so if you give 'em a quick short,
sharp, shock, they won't do it again. Dig it?
I mean he get off lightly, 'cos I would've given him a
Thrashing - I only hit him once!
It was only a difference of opinion,
But really...I mean good manners
don't cost nothing do they, eh?"

Down and out
It can't be helped but there's a lot of it about
With, without
And who'll deny it's what the fighting's all about?
Out of the way, it's a busy day
I've got things on my mind
For the want of the price of tea and a slice
The old man died

Any Colour You Like
[Instrumental]

Brain Damage
The lunatic is on the grass
The lunatic is on the grass
Remembering games and daisy chains and laughs
Got to keep the loonies on the path

The lunatic is in the hall
The lunatics are in my hall
The paper holds their folded faces to the floor
And every day the paper boy brings more

And if the dam breaks open many years too soon
And if there is no room upon the hill
And if your head explodes with dark forebodings too
I'll see you on the dark side of the moon

The lunatic is in my head
The lunatic is in my head
You raise the blade, you make the change
You re-arrange me 'til I'm sane
You lock the door
And throw away the key
There's someone in my head but it's not me

And if the cloud bursts, thunder in your ear
You shout and no one seems to hear
And if the band you're in starts playing different tunes
I'll see you on the dark side of the moon

"I can't think of anything to say except...
I think it's marvelous! HaHaHa!"

Eclipse
All that you touch
All that you see
All that you taste
All you feel
All that you love
All that you hate
All you distrust
All you save
All that you give
All that you deal
All that you buy,
beg, borrow or steal
All you create
All you destroy
All that you do
All that you say
All that you eat
And everyone you meet
All that you slight
And everyone you fight
All that is now
All that is gone
All that's to come
and everything under the sun is in tune
but the sun is eclipsed by the moon.


"There is no dark side of the moon really.
Matter of fact it's all dark."
an introduction to logic: 12/19/2016 18:56:11


Beren • apex 
Level 63
Report
Great post, Min.
an introduction to logic: 12/19/2016 19:01:37


Wally Balls 
Level 58
Report
Speak to Me
"I've been mad for fucking years, absolutely years, been
over the edge for yonks, been working me buns off for bands..."
"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the
most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even
if you're not mad..."

Breathe (In the Air)
Breathe, breathe in the air
Don't be afraid to care
Leave but don't leave me
Look around and choose your own ground

Long you live and high you fly
And smiles you'll give and tears you'll cry
And all you touch and all you see
Is all your life will ever be

Run, rabbit run
Dig that hole, forget the sun
And when at last the work is done
Don't sit down it's time to dig another one

For long you live and high you fly But only if you ride the tide
And balanced on the biggest wave
You race towards an early grave

On The Run
"Live for today, gone tomorrow, that's me, HaHaHaaaaaa!"

Time
Ticking away the moments that make up a dull day
You fritter and waste the hours in an offhand way
Kicking around on a piece of ground in your home town
Waiting for someone or something to show you the way

Tired of lying in the sunshine staying home to watch the rain
You are young and life is long and there is time to kill today
And then one day you find ten years have got behind you
No one told you when to run, you missed the starting gun

So you run and you run to catch up with the sun but it's sinking
Racing around to come up behind you again
The sun is the same in a relative way but you're older,
Shorter of breath and one day closer to death

Every year is getting shorter never seem to find the time
Plans that either come to naught or half a page of scribbled lines
Hanging on in quiet desperation is the English way
The time is gone, the song is over,
Thought I'd something more to say...

Breathe (Reprise)
Home, home again
I like to be here when I can
When I come home cold and tired
It's good to warm my bones beside the fire
Far away across the field
The tolling of the iron bell
Calls the faithful to their knees
To hear the softly spoken magic spells

The Great Gig in the Sky
"And I am not frightened of dying, any time will do, I
don't mind. Why should I be frightened of dying?
There's no reason for it, you've gotta go sometime."
"I never said I was frightened of dying."

Money
Money, get away
Get a good job with good pay and you're okay
Money, it's a gas
Grab that cash with both hands and make a stash
New car, caviar, four star daydream,
Think I'll buy me a football team

Money, get back
I'm all right Jack keep your hands off of my stack
Money, it's a hit
Don't give me that do goody good bullshit
I'm in the high-fidelity first class traveling set
And I think I need a Lear jet

Money, it's a crime
Share it fairly but don't take a slice of my pie
Money, so they say
Is the root of all evil today
But if you ask for a raise it's no surprise
That they're giving none away.

"HuHuh! I was in the right!"
"Yes, absolutely in the right!"
"I certainly was in the right!"
"You was definitely in the right.
That geezer was cruising for a bruising!"
"Yeah!"
"Why does anyone do anything?"
"I don't know, I was really drunk at the time!"
"I was just telling him, he couldn't get into number 2.
He was asking why he wasn't coming up on freely,
After I was yelling and screaming and
Telling him why he wasn't coming up on freely.
It came as a heavy blow, but we sorted the matter out"

Us and Them
Us, and them
And after all we're only ordinary men.
Me, and you.
God only knows it's not what we would choose to do.
Forward he cried from the rear
and the front rank died.
And the general sat and the lines on the map
moved from side to side.

Black and blue
And who knows which is which and who is who
Up and down
But in the end it's only round and round
Haven't you heard it's a battle of words
The poster bearer cried
Listen son, said the man with the gun
There's room for you inside

"I mean, they're not gunna kill ya, so if you give 'em a quick short,
sharp, shock, they won't do it again. Dig it?
I mean he get off lightly, 'cos I would've given him a
Thrashing - I only hit him once!
It was only a difference of opinion,
But really...I mean good manners
don't cost nothing do they, eh?"

Down and out
It can't be helped but there's a lot of it about
With, without
And who'll deny it's what the fighting's all about?
Out of the way, it's a busy day
I've got things on my mind
For the want of the price of tea and a slice
The old man died

Any Colour You Like
[Instrumental]

Brain Damage
The lunatic is on the grass
The lunatic is on the grass
Remembering games and daisy chains and laughs
Got to keep the loonies on the path

The lunatic is in the hall
The lunatics are in my hall
The paper holds their folded faces to the floor
And every day the paper boy brings more

And if the dam breaks open many years too soon
And if there is no room upon the hill
And if your head explodes with dark forebodings too
I'll see you on the dark side of the moon

The lunatic is in my head
The lunatic is in my head
You raise the blade, you make the change
You re-arrange me 'til I'm sane
You lock the door
And throw away the key
There's someone in my head but it's not me

And if the cloud bursts, thunder in your ear
You shout and no one seems to hear
And if the band you're in starts playing different tunes
I'll see you on the dark side of the moon

"I can't think of anything to say except...
I think it's marvelous! HaHaHa!"

Eclipse
All that you touch
All that you see
All that you taste
All you feel
All that you love
All that you hate
All you distrust
All you save
All that you give
All that you deal
All that you buy,
beg, borrow or steal
All you create
All you destroy
All that you do
All that you say
All that you eat
And everyone you meet
All that you slight
And everyone you fight
All that is now
All that is gone
All that's to come
and everything under the sun is in tune
but the sun is eclipsed by the moon.


"There is no dark side of the moon really.
Matter of fact it's all dark."


Red herring.
Posts 1 - 26 of 26   

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