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Team Ladder: 3/14/2017 18:18:09


Master of the Dead 
Level 63
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I'm currently working on a team ladder. This is a 2v2 CLOT where team mates are picked randomly for each game. The challenge is to play with a variety of team mates and have fun! Ideally you will play with players of a similar skill level. The goal is to try to rise to the top. The higher you go, the higher the caliber of your team mate and opponents.

The intent of this thread is to gauge interest in such a ladder. Any improvements to the proposal are also welcome.



Eligibility Criteria
  • Boot Rate < 8%. I may consider players with higher boot rates if they can convince me of their reliability. Players should be reliable on this ladder as boots punish others if they are on your team. 1 boot = warning. 2nd boot = ban for 2 months.
  • I'll pick the top 24 players who are interested. I'll add new players once a week based on first-come, first-serve(after the top 24). I'll also hold regular qualifier tournaments which can be used to jump this queue.
  • You must unlock all features and maps used on this ladder as well.
  • Massive delays hinder this ladder and are grounds for removal.


    If you leave the ladder, you cannot rejoin it for a certain period as penalty. Do not sign up if you cannot commit to playing out your games in a responsible manner. A player can take up to a maximum of 20 days vacation(cumulative), after which they will be permnanently removed from the ladder. They can get in the queue again and join at a later date. When you take a vacation, you will be auto-removed and can rejoin once your vacation is over.


Matchmaking Algorithm

  • Every player will be matched with players of a similar skill level. All players are sorted by rating. Every player can be teamed randomly with 8 players above or below them and no one else. Every team can get players up to 12 positions above or below them.
  • The ladder will form 2 random teams from the player pool and create a match-up between them.
  • Since everyone can play multiple games at a time, it creates match-ups until everyone has their allotted amount of games.



Rating System

This CLOT will use the standard Elo rating system with some modifications. A detailed explanation can be found at https://metinmediamath.wordpress.com/2013/11/27/how-to-calculate-the-elo-rating-including-example/

If a team of A and B(rating = rA, rB) beat a team of C and D(rating = rC, rD), the impact on their ratings is as follows (based on a formula suggested by sze):
rA = rA + WIN(rA, quadratic mean(rC, rD)
rB = rB + WIN(rB, quadratic mean(rC, rD)
rC = rC - LOSS(rC, quadratic mean(rA, rB)
rD = rD - LOSS(rD, quadratic mean(rA, rB)

Handling boots(suggested by ps):

If A1, A2, B1, B2 are playing a game
  • A1 boots. B1, B2 both get wins, A1 gets a loss, the game doesnt have any impact on A2
  • A1,A2 boot. B1, B2 both get wins, A1,A2 get losses.
  • A1, B1 boot. There is no "winner" displayed on the ladder. However, A1, B1 get losses and A2,B2 both get wins.
  • A1, A2, B1 boot. There is no "winner" displayed on the ladder. However, A1, A2, B1 get losses and B2 gets a win.


How frequently are games scheduled?
Games are scheduled every 2 hours if a team-mate and two opponents are available.

How often can I play on the same team?
Two players can play on the same team once every 20 days.

Which are the templates used on the ladder?
This CLOT will have multiple 2v2 templates.

How many games can I play at a time?
Every player can play up to 2-5 games at once. You must sign up for a minimum of 2 games though.




tl;dr - The intent of this thread is to gauge interest in such a ladder(hoping for at least 24 active players who will stay permanently). Any improvements to the proposal are also welcome.

First qualifier - https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer/Tournament?ID=22579

Edited 3/15/2017 17:17:18
Team Ladder: 3/14/2017 18:27:55

AI
Level 61
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I like the idea and I would play.
Team Ladder: 3/14/2017 18:45:04


LeQuébécois_Benoit
Level 61
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It is very cool MotD, the only problem is if you get paired with people that are horrible skill-wise and/or that you have blacklisted. Other than that, I think it is a great project!

Edited 3/14/2017 18:46:16
Team Ladder: 3/14/2017 18:45:57


Kαyleigh
Level 54
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Yes there will always be a risk when it comes to partners, but it still sounds fun. Think about it this way: This could be a fantastic tool to make new friends on WL to play with, and I am very much in favor of this CLOT and will be playing. :)

Edited 3/14/2017 18:47:02
Team Ladder: 3/14/2017 18:56:17


master of desaster 
Level 64
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I think it will be possible to find 24 good and active players for a nice rotating team ladder. Rotating in teammate and templates as well will be very nice i think.
Team Ladder: 3/14/2017 19:06:22


ChrisCMU 
Level 60
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Sounds great, though i agree with blacklist question.

I would join for sure.
Team Ladder: 3/14/2017 19:14:02


LeQuébécois_Benoit
Level 61
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Rotating in teammate and templates as well will be very nice i think.

+1 to that

It will be very fun to see who can create chemistry with most different players in order to win the most games. It is also a very nice ladder to meet people of other clans and create new friendships.

Other than the Blacklist, an other obstacle I see is the boot problems. Even on regular team ladders where you always have the same partner, reliability can be an issue. I am wondering how big of a problem could be boots when you are paired with a lot of players that can all potentially be unreliable for boots.

Anyways, I am in if possible!

Edited 3/14/2017 22:12:01
Team Ladder: 3/14/2017 19:34:52


Master Turtle 
Level 61
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Great idea! I would be interested in playing :)
Team Ladder: 3/14/2017 20:14:08


[FCC] Aura Guardian 
Level 60
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Count me in!
Team Ladder: 3/14/2017 20:18:14


Math Wolf 
Level 63
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Count me in if I'm still among the top 24 players once everyone showed interest.

Only remark I have is quite technical: the quadratic mean is heavily dependent on the choice of the 0 and therefore not translation-independent. A 0 rating in ELO is somewhat arbitrarily though, so I'm not sure if the quadratic mean would necessarily work so well here.

Additionally, since the quadratic mean is always as least as high as the regular mean and both WIN and LOSS use it in their formula, you will rapidly get rating inflation.

I do understand the concept of the quadratic mean though as you try to more heavily weigh the better player in the team. I'm not sure if this is the best way to do that though.
Team Ladder: 3/14/2017 20:58:51


ScarlettTD 
Level 56
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I'm interested, sounds great!
Team Ladder: 3/14/2017 21:55:17


PanagiotisTheGreekFreak
Level 62
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Count me in as well!
Team Ladder: 3/14/2017 22:29:29


Kaerox
Level 58
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Same there, nice idea
Team Ladder: 3/14/2017 22:39:34


Dogberry
Level 57
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What is the minimum number of games a participant can play at one time?

I am interested (as long as I can reduce the game count below 5), but I guarantee I will not be in the top 24 players applying for this position.
Team Ladder: 3/14/2017 22:46:32


Platinum
Level 59
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Ha! 7.9% boot rate :D

I'm interested and interested in playing!
Team Ladder: 3/14/2017 22:55:22


Master of the Dead 
Level 63
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the only problem is if you get paired with people that are horrible skill-wise and/or that you have blacklisted.
I have some ideas around fixing that. But I don't want to say too much until I figure out how feasible they are. For now, you'll have to be prepared to play against anyone in your skill range.

an other obstacle I see is the boot problems. Even on regular team ladders where you always have the same partner, reliability can be an issue. I am wondering how big of a problem could be boots when you are paired with a lot of players that can all potentially be unreliable for boots.
I'm not too concerned with boots. If a team mate boots, you do not get a loss and have no negative impact on your rating. However, if you were in a winning position, it is annoying. Everyone gets only 1 chance. The second boot results in a ban, and should act as a deterrent.

Only remark I have is quite technical: the quadratic mean is heavily dependent on the choice of the 0 and therefore not translation-independent. A 0 rating in ELO is somewhat arbitrarily though, so I'm not sure if the quadratic mean would necessarily work so well here.
I'll sync with you to figure out alternatives.

What is the minimum number of games a participant can play at one time?
2 games.

I am interested (as long as I can reduce the game count below 5), but I guarantee I will not be in the top 24 players applying for this position.
That's fine. We'll have a queue and everyone can eventually join as long as they are reliable and meet the pre-reqs.


p.s - I also need 5-6 testers. You will basically play some dummy 2v2 games and help me test functionality. If you can help out with that, PM me your profile id or post on this thread.
Team Ladder: 3/14/2017 23:22:15


Master of the Dead 
Level 63
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Team Ladder: 3/14/2017 23:36:55


Tac(ky)tical
Level 61
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if you'd have me my boot rate is high but I can avoid boots if I need to
Team Ladder: 3/14/2017 23:42:30

krunx 
Level 59
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I'll pick the top 24 players who are interested.


How do you plan to determine these top 24 players?

MDL, 1v1 ladder, 2v2 ladder, 3v3 ladder or based on your experience?

Edited 3/15/2017 00:03:52
Team Ladder: 3/15/2017 00:00:08


Onoma94 
Level 60
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Not interested because I propably won't make the 24 :p
Team Ladder: 3/15/2017 00:04:39


Master of the Dead 
Level 63
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How do you plan to determine these top 24 players?

MDL, 1v1 ladder, 2v2 ladder, 3v3 ladder or based on your experience?
It'll be a combination of these. My intent isn't to make an elitist ladder. Having reliable players who stick around is important to retain everyone who joins the ladder. If people keep booting or aren't motivated enough it will turn others off. I'd also like to have continuity on the ladder(= more motivated players), which is why there are more restrictions around leaving/vacations than you see on MDL. All of this is based on my learning from the previous team CLOT I did.

Edited 3/15/2017 00:05:02
Team Ladder: 3/15/2017 00:28:32


ps 
Level 60
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i like the concept of team ladder with rotating partners and templates but i'm against the elitist eligibility criteria of being for 24 players at a time. so i'm not participating out of principle.

i believe a player should be able to join and leave whenever they want.

i can agree with the auto-removal on boot, and perm ban on recurrent boots.

but i can't agree with waiting on a list for weeks/months until a spot opens up for you to actually get games whenever you first register and/or return to warlight after holidays.

Edited 3/15/2017 00:36:05
Team Ladder: 3/15/2017 00:46:19


Dogberry
Level 57
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How likely is it that someone will be booted in only 1 of their 2 to 5 games (or wherever the upper threshold is set) that they have going concurrently? I detest boots, but is 2 the right number for the permaban? 1 bad 3 day weekend or temporary computer problems and there's your permaban (with extra boots beyond 2 in all likelihood) for an otherwise reliable player...
Team Ladder: 3/15/2017 00:49:23


Bonsai
Level 59
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Perhaps starting with the "top 24" participants is an ill-choice of words... perhaps you should collect as many "reliable" players that you know and choose from them randomly (and then add to the number accordingly)?

Edited 3/15/2017 01:01:42
Team Ladder: 3/15/2017 01:30:41


Master of the Dead 
Level 63
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but i'm against the elitist eligibility criteria of being for 24 players at a time. so i'm not participating out of principle.
Like I said, my intent isn't to impose an elitist eligibility criteria. It is to ensure reliability. I just made the assumption that top players are more reliable.

i believe a player should be able to join and leave whenever they want.
I want to avoid players signing up for 1-2 games and then leaving. My previous team CLOT had this problem as well and it just died off. Continuity is important, and I'd rather have a smaller group of serious players than a large pool of players who keep leaving and aren't committed teammates.

but i can't agree with waiting on a list for weeks/months until a spot opens up for you to actually get games whenever you first register and/or return to warlight after holidays.
I don't really expect a waiting period of months. If that happens, I'll revisit it. Ideally, I want every player who will be a good teammate(regardless of skill level) on this ladder.

How likely is it that someone will be booted in only 1 of their 2 to 5 games (or wherever the upper threshold is set) that they have going concurrently? I detest boots, but is 2 the right number for the permaban? 1 bad 3 day weekend or temporary computer problems and there's your permaban (with extra boots beyond 2 in all likelihood) for an otherwise reliable player...
Ah. I hadn't thought of this. Thanks for bringing it up. This feature is not built into the system and I was planning on enforcing this manually. We can just restate it to "If you boot on two separate occasions, then that's a ban. So a bunch of boots over a bad weekend amounts to '1 occasion'"

Perhaps starting with the "top 24" participants is an ill-choice of words... perhaps you should collect as many "reliable" players that you know and choose from them randomly (and then add to the number accordingly)?
Yeah. I was mainly going for reliability and making the incorrect assumption that the top players will be reliable. I like your approach better and we can use that. Ironically you had the 24th post ;)
Team Ladder: 3/15/2017 01:36:06


Dogberry
Level 57
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I like the rewording of the ban policy. I withdraw this concern :-)

And for what its worth, I also wouldn't be opposed to a "1 and done" boot-ban policy either, but it would need to be clearly stated as such.
Team Ladder: 3/15/2017 03:10:20


[FCC] SuperGamerzChannel 
Level 58
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I would like to play
Team Ladder: 3/15/2017 03:22:13


Marigold Sunshine 
Level 59
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sign me up, b0ss. im a professional team player
Team Ladder: 3/15/2017 03:31:57


Semicedevine 
Level 60
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the only problem is if you get paired with people that are horrible skill-wise and/or that you have blacklisted.

as long as we keep matching people up with only teammates of around almost the same rating area, overtime the luck balances out (whether you're getting a good or crap teammate)

the trick then is to know how to deal with bad teammates (team carrying is a real skill that actually comes into play in competitive leagues)

Edited 3/15/2017 03:32:11
Team Ladder: 3/15/2017 04:39:21

mslasm 
Level 59
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To partially solve the "away on the weekend" problem maybe use 1d10h with 1d banked time? An average 2v2 game is at least 5 turns long, so 1d bank will average to only 3-4 extra hours per turn. I know most ladders don't have any banks, but 1d10h calls for one!

Also maybe add an ability to (privately) blacklist up to N players similar to how md-ladder allows blacklisting templates?
Posts 1 - 30 of 54   1  2  Next >>   

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