I hope USSR is soon in that list. I think we are in the top 30.

This clan is RP/Diplo based and overall a good and active community.

Edge list is based on strategic based clans.

Founded 10 months ago Outlaws are an uprising clan, who made its first appearance in those rankings. Despite the fact that they currently have a hard fight to stay in Division A of Clan League, they still managed to get into the top 5 in this ranking. The latest recruits of Odin and Widzisz played an important role for that. With Krzysztof and Odin i rated two players into the elite category. Since the foundation of Outlaws they managed to develope some of their players into very good players, like Njord. A large number of good players around them give the clan all together a great base for the future.

Kk, I'll take the bait. Who says Odin is an elite top player? Even back in the meta where he had his best performances, there was never any competitive consensus since he tended not to play in the big competitive events. Basically there's no undeniable proof that puts him at that top category. When you look at the rest of those people in that 10/10 category you see a long history of playing consistently at the top. That's one of the main reasons why you conceded that Jz couldn't be in that category, in which I agree with you.

Odin has not been in the public competitive spotlight since like 2 years ago I think? Also I don't think Odin fixes Outlaws biggest problem.. the fact that Outlaws lost every Europe 3v3 game (except ongoing 3v3 to Masters) except to Blitz who lost to everyone in that tournament. Sure, the Rome 3v3 tournament looks good, but Odin is not going to fix that no matter how good he is at 3v3s, and there's no guarantee that Rome 3v3 is going to stay (at least not with the same settings).

To rank Outlaws above ONE! is pretty ambitious, especially given the fact ONE! has more results while all that Outlaws have right now is potential. I think you guys forget that no matter how much potential there is in a team it means nothing until they can prove that they can perform. Outlaws have not proven they can perform consistently, while ONE! definitely has.

I love Widzisz, but he fits to Outlaws current strengths, which won't really improve Outlaws as a whole. So I disagree that Outlaws belongs in the top 5, they definitely fit into the top 10, but to place them in the top 5 is being blinded by potential rather than results.

i think your way of assessing clan strength does make sense(to cover all normal formats)and have succes as a clan(in cl i presume) but that is not the way these rankings were made. they were made on individual scores of players that were just added up

Edited 6/25/2017 23:54:40

also have you seen the eu game?i have not so i dont know the posistion in the games, but there was boots in all of the 5 losses

Regarding Europe , 4/6 games were booted. We were crippled with boots. Lynx we were heavily outplayed , Turtles was booted from the start and ONE! + French we had boots in critical turns.

We used many replacements on EU alone and had to call in 2 players who weren't very experienced to do the job against Blitz.

No excuses for boots but not entirely accurate of our skill on 3v3 EU I feel anyways.

Maybe next season we can do a better showing on EU.

I think our weak point was our roster choice on CL because of the fact we used all 6 replacements. Boots didn't help. I also believe maybe the experience played a part .. Not often you can play the top players at the top level. But fuck excuses performance matters.

Edited 6/26/2017 00:08:18

Njord sums it up pretty good. These rankings aren't about CL, these rankings are about a categorization of each player in that clan (if that player showed enough to allow making me put him into one of my categories).

And as i already stated in my first posts. I tried to find some consensus metrics to got rankings who are as accurate as they can be, but especially the highest 2 categories are a subjective part. Every one will probably has other elite or close to elite players. If i ever do that again i will definitely use the same metrics and i will definitely try to find a group of players of different clans to help me put these 2 top categories together. I do think i did overall a good job on evalutating those 2 categories, but ofc. there are always different opinions.

Looking at it now, i would be open to talk about categorization of players like Odin with other players. But looking at it now i would also rank a player like Widzisz higher than i originally had. There is just a lack of experience from my side for all events that happened before my time, so my view was influenced by things u can hear and especially read about a player and Odin was always listed in other Clan rankings together with the players of 20 as a clan who fielded in general the best players. Odin was named in the same sentence as szweningen f.ex. and since i could never read any disagreement with that, who would i have been to disagree with it on my own, if i never saw them play back then? So it was the only thing that made sense to me to assume, that this consens was the truth.

About CL: Atm, we could field a very competitive 1vs1 lineup. Besides China we did a good job on the 2vs2. And the 3vs3 EU tournament was just a mess with boots for us. Kezzo and Dogberry stepped in and made a good job in a time were we really suffered hard on EU. Trust me we not only have Odin who can make us stronger on EU. We also have aoc who we can put in any time and know that he is competitive to play against the best.

Edited 6/26/2017 08:09:10

But Odin account was not sold time ago? Are we sure we are talking of the same guy?

It's not surprising that an outlaw player is overratting the Outlaws clan.

I don't think i overrate us. As i said it's a ranking based on individual skills put together to an average skill level of that clan. Other factors play a role into it as well, so i adjusted certain things manually, but overall i do think my rating is pretty accurate. 1 position up or down is debateable, but overrating would mean i rate us drastically better than others, which i don't think i did here.

Looking at CL we had a rough start, but managed to make a comeback into the top 5 and it looks like we have a good chance to stay in Division A. All of that without 2 players who raised our rating here from a 7.6 to a 8.0. And a 7.6 without them seems pretty accurate to me. Slightly below One and on the same level as the French Community.

Edit:
@ ilpeggiore
I don't know where u got that information from, but Odin didn't sold his account. It's still the same guy.

Edited 6/29/2017 11:06:02

I understand now you judge by getting an average skill of players in the clan: I guess a kind of "mean". But your description paragraphs are not consistant with this way. You do talk the statistics too far. Furthermore, I don't know how you can judge the mean level of players, that is very hard to judge.

Many players judge on ladder accomplishments, that is a fair way to judge, but not a good one. If you do that, you should not judge all the players that do not play ladder. How can you take into account the number of games you farmed in the ladder ? The best way to describe a player is to look at games of players with an important aim.

Unfortunately, it would be a mess to see enough of games from all players. Furthermore, a lot of players are not be able to judge some skill moves from players that play better than them, referring often to the "old good luck".

I don't think I'm wrong if I say most of the players in warlight doesn't have a good idea of the level of most of the other players, of course not in the bottum, but not even of the top. Maybe the top 50 players of the warlight history that are still playing could judge who is part of it (without cannot easily and objectively rank them). All players have an idea of the level of players that play often, overrating those they loose against, underrating those they win against. Even more, people are overrating names they always see in the ladder page without having a fucking idea of how they play. In the same time, they often don't even think a player they didn't heard about can beat them so hard.


Let's see two example I could talk about. All along the French Community history, this clan was underrated. Probably because we are a friendly clan, or because there always was a huge gap of level between players. But the most important is that peoples don't know us well or don't know how we play. Our top players are not farming ladder more than one or two months in each run. Each season of the Clan league, all average prédictions put the FC releguated, even the season we got first in point with Apex, and after. The only good point I heard is that we have no depth. More this season, we are almost all semi-retired so this time prédictions will probably be rights. You said "their biggest strength is probably their ability to play good together as a team" that is I think true, but I guess you say that because our bad %wins in 1v1 this season, where we got inactive players in 5 tourney out of 6 (only Wazz played in fact). Qi recently told me it's interesting to play with us because we have top players with another way to play in Warlight in the FC (I guess because we played a long time only between ourself) and he only saw another clan with a different playstyle in a chinese clan. For example, Ze is a very good player, far better other frenchs with some accomplishments. A season he got an impressive %wins in CL, but everyone was talking about Qi (without a better %wins and less tournaments played).

It's very hard to judge the level of players in warlight, and it's probably why I have never seen a top (or very good) player in Warlight trying to put in the forum a ranking without clear and specific notations. And if you rank clans by player-average level, you have to rank players.


I agree there is good players in Outlaws - it's not my point - and the average level of your clan is good, but your top players are far enough from the top, and there is an important gap if you have to make a roster for the div A. By the way, you are not sure to stay in A, and the two other teams you could beat are two teams that don't have players to play their games anymore. You put your team far better than M'Hunter but you did not better in RCL season 1 when you put a real and competitive line up.

You recently recruit good players as Odin, Widzisz and Krzysztof (recent in outlaws too) that considerably get up your level. But judge on them is not really fair by the way if you are judging on recent results (by the way, the HHH level since he is in CORP is not so good, and he didn't give very much to them). By the way you forgot for Nynwhen in your description (only Njord), that would probably be more fair than to talk about the players who carry your clan in A than the hypothetic contribution of your recent recruits.

What do you trying to do ? What are you talking about ?

Are you doing a ranking on recent results ? Predictions ? Or global level ? It's not clear, and it makes me think this is very subjective.

I think you mixed a part of recent results (not all) and your intake to judge of predictions in a bad way that is more a possibility at a short term, but not at all a justification of any level.

Outlaws is a young and talented clan, and I hope you will do very well but for now you didn't proved so much. Your point system could vary enormously depending on whether they are predictions, accomplishements(obviously it's not), recent results or just a gradient of form (that is very important to win a CL) and in any case I would put Outlaws much better than ONE.

Edited 6/29/2017 15:57:57

Outlaws did better then M'Hunters in RCL season 1.

Personally I wouldn't put ourselves above ONE! It's not Outlaws clan rankings it's Edge personal opinion hence the thread called "Edges Clan Rankings" and I agree with the majority of your points. I think next CL if we do stay up is when we can see how much Outlaws is to the top.

1. I told it multiple times, I did not include players who i couldn't find performances on the ladders or other events like MDL, AWP etc. Why? It's pretty easy. It would be a total guess and even more inaccurate so i take all those competetive events as the reference. Everything else would be even more inaccurate.

Maybe u have a better way of getting a ranking together, than please let me know and others or even myself can think about that the next time (mine was based on the ratings of the top 10 rated players of each clan).

I worked nearly a week on those rankings. I could have done better ofc and ask around, but that would have been to time intense, so i think working on it for a week is enough and probably more than others have done in the past.


2. For the French Community i rated Qi as elite and i rated 4 players as very good. I didn't wrote down my rating for every player so i can't say to 100% if i rated Ze as a very good player due to my terms. I think i did, but i'm not 100% sure about it. Ofc i could have wrote the rating of every player down, but tbh that would have been even more time intense, since i included 545 players into my base statistic.

You said "their biggest strength is probably their ability to play good together as a team" that is I think true, but I guess you say that because our bad %wins in 1v1 this season, where we got inactive players in 5 tourney out of 6 (only Wazz played in fact).

I made those rankings a month ago, so i didn't knew about the 125ch boots messing up two 1vs1 tournaments for u. If the others are inactives i couldn't know, but nevertheless those results weren't the reason for my sentence. I said that because i think that was mainly the reason for your great CL 7 (?) performance. I'm not sure how good the other clans in that season were on the 1vs1 lineup. Did they had the quality of todays Masters or Lynx 1vs1 potential f.ex? Even if they played todas well known players, did they had the same quality as today? Looking at those results, Wazz and 125ch did had a positive result in all together 3 1vs1 tournaments they played. In comparison to that u had in all team tournaments positive end results so that's the reason why i said that sentence and since u agreed it seems to be accurate.

3. I don't think our top players are far away from the top. I didn't mention Krzy, since he is in our CL lineup already in contrast to Odin and Widzisz, who joined us after the season began. I heard other opinions about my rankings of the top player. Krzy probably close to elite and not elite. I mentioned the reasons for the categorization of Odin earlier to Kenny. I think i could just take him into the elite category. And for Widz i think i underestimated him, he would belong in the close to elite category as well, so all together those 3 players are bringing the same results in the end. And yeah i only mentioned Njord besides them as an examlpe of homegrowing players into very good players. I could have mentioned others as well, but than again i don't wanted to write doubled as much as to any other clan so i reduced it to that.

4. Didn't we agreed to not mention the RCL in the public? I won't post our lineup here. Just that much we let 18 different players play in 18 different slots. zarathoustra, Platinum, Nynwhen, Juan, Tacky, Bonsai and Kezzo were the ones from that lineup who played for us in CL at some time. 4 of those players played in the two 3vs3 tournaments (both finishing 3-0). The 3 other players played in the 1vs1 (2 finishing 3-0, only Platinum finished 0-3, sry for mentioning that Plat). Nobody was better with their actual CL players on the first season of the RCL than us.

5. All together i think i explained my rating methods enough. I explained enough why I had us ranked above One and how out 8.0 was put together in comparison to the 7.7 of One or the 7.6 we would have with the players who play in CL for us. Not everybody must agree on that, but i think i mentioned reasonable points for that, which should be understandable ito everybody. One is doing a phenomental job on CL and is currently 2nd. Does that mean i should have rated them above Lynx f.ex.?

I listed all my criterias and i published all the statistics i made for those rankings. It's always difficult for anybody to make 100% objective rankings, but as i also said earlier in this thread i think that the most subjective part of my rankings, was the part of ranking in the players into the 2 top categories. Other than that i draw clear lines between each category to back up my rankings as objective as i can be. So i do think i put some accurate rankings together and until this point i think most agreed with me on that in general. (Smaller shifts and disagreement of the ratings of certain players will always happen, but i didn't heard about any drastically wrong rating of the players or clans i named so far, just about 1 spots up/down or rating point up/down for a player)

Edited 6/29/2017 17:09:42

I think everyone likes your ratings Edge, we just are trying to find some stuff that could make it even better. Btw, we will soon make some sort of rating system for the captain's league. It would be very cool if you would accept to join our crew of voters. We have so far Tacky, Xeno, Oh, myself and Platinum (not confirmed yet tho) to make ratings. The more raters we would have, the best it will be!

Edited 6/29/2017 19:29:19

Yeah that's no problem for me. If someone has ideas to make it better i try to take it into consideration for the next time, or others hopefully will.

F.ex. i would ask more players about elite and close to elite players, cause that's more subjective than the other categories. Maybe u could also ask players about their clans, so they have a chance to mention players who others might not know that well, but that's ofc again time expensive as well.

For Captains League i'm sorry, but i don't know how much time i would have for it, so that's why i don't play it. The same goes for rating all those players. I need the time for CL, MDL, other ladders, AWP etc.

Cool np :)

I mean given that I can only really point out skewed rankings with like 3 clans (French, Outlaws, ONE!) and they're all 3 clans that are hard to judge based on any simple metric speaks volumes to how much thought you did put into all this Edge.

I like the effort he put into this, and I don't think it is far off, but I don't like the mean aspect of it either. Suppose we take on a new player with potential, but he rates them as just average. Well, that lowers our mean/rating. But did we really get worse? Only if we use the new player in CL and they flop.

I also don't know the definitions of his player rating. What does "average" player mean anyway? I can guarantee you that no player in WG should be considered "average" in the WL community. Did you give that to Reza because he has no ladder records shown? He was not eligible to play the ladders for a long time because he had no membership.

You should probably judge him on his CL performances I guess, or look at his games...when people don't have ladder stats.

So i took the 10 best rated players of each clan to get more accurate rankings

This is in the first page of the thread...

Edited 6/29/2017 23:40:04

I think any overrating of outlaws comes from his knowledge of his own clan and lack of knowledge for yours. Its obvious who one and two are as they are well known top tier clans, all the players skill is pretty well acknowledged.

ONE! is similar, and is easy to rank in the top 4 or 5.

But when it comes to clans below, someone like edge can only know so much. Edge knows outlaws. He doesn't know French or similar clans quite as well, so he can either base it off of statistics, or base it off of his preconceived notions.

I think edge did a fantastic job with the information given, and while I disagree with some, its all subjective.