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Facts and Values: 7/3/2017 14:21:29

(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 53
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Truthseekers seek facts at any cost while value-oriented people care about preserving their values to the point of ignoring facts that contradict their values.

Facts can never be immoral. Revealing facts is usually not immoral either.

Embrace facts for they let you make better decisions regardless of your values and motives.

Edited 7/3/2017 14:29:02
Facts and Values: 7/3/2017 15:06:20


Emperor Justinian
Level 48
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Doing things at any cost is wrong a lot of the time.
Facts and Values: 7/3/2017 15:15:40

(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 53
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^You can have facts as well as your values. Uncomfortable facts just like other facts will never go away.
Facts and Values: 7/3/2017 15:27:55


Seraph 
Level 57
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I learned at a very young age that peacocks and peahens deny facts and don't even consider your evidence because they so strongly want to believe what they already believe is true, or they have such inflated egos that they would never consider that someone knows more about something than them.


When you are winning against someone in an argument, they take it as if you are taking a blow to them, not just the position they are arguing. I've known this forever because I've been in many arguments with people, but Tabby just speaks the obvious truth. :P

Edited 7/3/2017 15:29:10
Facts and Values: 7/3/2017 15:35:25

(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 53
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^As Ian Ford showed in his book, non-autists are usually fact denialists. They usually communicate to exchange social signals instead of information. They don't always lie because there is a difference between lying and not even caring about facts at all and they usually don't even care about facts. Since non-autists frequently code social signals such as "we belong to the same group" in ostensibly fact-based communication they know that most ostensibly fact-based communications are bullshit and are in fact social signalling. On the other hand, fact-based communication of autists is just what it literally is, namely informing others of facts.

If you have won against a non-autist in an argument, the non-autist who probably does not care about the argument itself at all (since non-autists are generally fact denialists) does not perceive it as a discussion about reality but instead an attack on his/her social status. To an autist "Alice knows more than Bob" literally means "Alice has more knowledge compared to Bob" while a non-autist will probably interpret it as "Alice has higher social status than Bob".

Edited 7/3/2017 15:48:27
Facts and Values: 7/3/2017 15:46:29


Dexterous Strategist
Level 27
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" but Tabby just speaks the obvious truth."

>tabby
>truth

I don't think so.
Facts and Values: 7/3/2017 17:36:27


Emperor Justinian
Level 48
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^You are so annoying and make regular Libtards look good at debating. Not really.

Edited 7/3/2017 18:32:56
Facts and Values: 7/3/2017 23:49:36

DanWL 
Level 62
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Facts can never be immoral. Revealing facts is usually not immoral either.

Some facts can challenge people's beliefs such as religion. The way that some facts are discovered can be immoral and unethical in some cases.


Doing things at any cost is wrong a lot of the time.

It depends what the thing is.


Embrace facts for they let you make better decisions regardless of your values and motives.

Give some examples; go deeper.

non-autists are usually fact denialists

*non-autistic people
*deny facts

You'll find that 1% of the world's population is autistic(1.), so some non-autistic people are bound to deny facts because the sample size is huge. Also, some people deny facts because of the fact having a lack of evidence to prove it correct. I wouldn't expect anyone to believe a point if there wasn't anything to back it up unless that person has an understanding of the topic or that person is gullible.


They usually communicate to exchange social signals instead of information. They don't always lie because there is a difference between lying and not even caring about facts at all and they usually don't even care about facts.

Who are you referring to as "they"?
There are more that just words in conversations. Conversations are mostly all to do with body language. See this below image for details:



If you have won against a non-autist in an argument, the non-autist who probably does not care about the argument itself at all (since non-autists are generally fact denialists) does not perceive it as a discussion about reality but instead an attack on his/her social status.

*If you have won against a non-autistic person in the argument, that person probably does not care about the argument itself (since non-autistic people tend to deny facts.
The next part of sentence isn't structured in a way that I can understand
*but instead as an attack on that person's social status
It's 2017 - not all people consider themselves to be either male or female.

What you're saying in this part is generally false. People only take certain facts about ethical issues (such as science vs religion) as attacks on their social status.


To an autist "Alice knows more than Bob" literally means "Alice has more knowledge compared to Bob" while a non-autist will probably interpret it as "Alice has higher social status than Bob".

*To an autistic person, "Alice knows more than Bob" literally means "Alice has more knowledge compared to Bob"; however, a non-autistic person will probably interpret it as "Alice has higher social status than Bob".
People intemperate things in a different way. Why would the phrase "Alice knows more than Bob" be interpreted as "Alice has higher social status than Bob" for all non-autistic people? I'd interpret it as "Alice knows more about [a subject] than Bob". This is because the word "know" is clearly based on knowledge. The word "know" can be found in the word "knows"...

References:


Edit: formatting.

Edited 7/3/2017 23:56:31
Facts and Values: 7/4/2017 01:10:18


Cata Cauda
Level 58
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I don't like it how you always generalise people. Especially people with and without autism. I feel like you try to say that autists are unbiased and always follow facts while non-autists (very) often just follow social norms. While I agree that the majority of the people is just mindless groupthinkers, I don't think you can say that autism has something to do with bias or not. No one is unbiased, even a machine is biased. Biased on how it is programmed.

Your so called "truthseekers" is a funny term. No one is a true "truthseeker". Many great scientists denied facts of other just because they were biased. This bias could be caused by many things, but fact is that it is always there. Everyone is "value-oriented".
Facts and Values: 7/4/2017 02:19:31

(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 53
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^I think I have a study to back my claim.
https://molecularautism.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13229-016-0104-x
Autists indeed suffer from less cognitive biases compared to non-autists. We autists aren't completely unbiased though we indeed do better than the average non-autist.

I was pretty hesitant to use the phrase "value-oriented" because pursuit of truth at any cost is itself a value. Hence "value-oriented" has to be interpreted as "letting values override cognition".

Edited 7/4/2017 02:23:44
Facts and Values: 7/4/2017 02:26:04

(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 53
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@DanWL Yeah I know how much non-autists use nonverbal communication. This is pretty much crazy. I do not understand most of the body language in general (that's certainly something I do not use other than smiling to show friendliness and politeness) and consider all verbal information literal unless the literal meaning clearly does not apply. How can body language and voices communicate much more than the actual verbal/mathematical information? This is really crazy! I don't think it is even easy to encode that much information using voices and body language. The only reasonable explanation is that non-autist verbal communication is really freaking weak.

Edited 7/4/2017 02:31:50
Facts and Values: 7/4/2017 14:08:10


∞ Western Imperialist ∞
Level 17
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itt tl;dr rants by an autist
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