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Alt runs = Ladder Cheating?: 8/6/2017 07:29:06


Edge
Level 61
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I received an interesting statement from Fizzer, which i want to publish. Although i didn't found it in the rules while i overflew them, i'm pretty sure it's mentioned there as well, but so many people probably won't know about it anyways.

So here we go:
http://www.bilder-upload.eu/show.php?file=4371b6-1502006252.png

"You should wait until the first account loses its rank before joining an alt.

For non-RT, you should wait until all games have expired before joining an alt."


So let's talk about the 1st sentence.
You're not allowed to play on the Real-Time Ladder while another account of yours is still ranked. Meaning you can't join with another account until 3 days since the last finished games are gone by. I think many people already know that.

But let's talk now about the 2nd sentence which is pretty interesting. At least for me since i never knew about it.

So there we have an answer, that pretty much says that alt runs are forbidden. You have to wait until all games have been expired until you join with an alt. That means you have to wait 5 months until all your games have been expired until you're allowed to join the 1vs1 ladder with another account again. It's the same rule for the 2vs2 and 3vs3 ladder.

For the seasonal btw. it's ofc forbidden to play on two accounts in the same season. I didn't asked about that, but that should be pretty much known as well.

So what is my intention of this thread? Basically i want to either spread knowledge or refresh peoples memories about those rules. Threads will get old and forgotten, but people should know about it in the present, so that newer players, like i once was myself might receive directly the ruling for those things if they talk about it.

Think twice before making an alt run. Under those rules it probably makes no sense at all to make them, since u need to wait anyways until all your games have been expired.

Edit: Here are the Terms of Service, in case someone is interested in it:
https://www.warlight.net/TermsOfService
and the rules from warlights wiki:
https://www.warlight.net/wiki/Rules

Edited 8/6/2017 08:24:55
Alt runs = Ladder Cheating?: 8/6/2017 07:35:21


Cata Cauda
Level 58
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Interesting thread, but next time you wanna show a screenshot, please use a site that doesnt display ads all over the picture which redirect you to a porn-site when you wanna get rid of it.

...

RIP Clean search-history ...

Edited 8/6/2017 07:35:48
Alt runs = Ladder Cheating?: 8/6/2017 07:54:56


Edge
Level 61
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Haha, sry i'm using an adblocker. I changed it so it should work now without any ads.

Edited 8/6/2017 07:55:44
Alt runs = Ladder Cheating?: 8/6/2017 08:03:44


SuperGamerz 
Level 58
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Fizzer would have to ban almost every strategic player in top clans with alts, as this practice is very common.

Do I mind this rule in place? No. But this is impossible to know for sure who's alt is whose, and whether their other account has all games expired or not. This is added on top of the fact players that have been ranked on the ladder at the same time or even played a game against themself has been let go free.

For me this is a nonissue unless two things happen.

A. Fizzer says that playing the ladder on another account with unexpired games is banned, and
B. Fizzer actually backs up this word and cracks down on those who do it.
Alt runs = Ladder Cheating?: 8/6/2017 08:07:25


wakanarai 
Level 58
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caught the main message in screenshot to outline it for everyone so they don't have to use the link to see it.

Alt runs = Ladder Cheating?: 8/6/2017 08:16:49


Edge
Level 61
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Thx waka. I added a link to the terms of service as well, so people can read through the rules.
Alt runs = Ladder Cheating?: 8/6/2017 08:19:43


Dogberry
Level 57
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Should implies at least the possibility of a moral code beyond that which is established by the official rules.

I do not understand why Fizzer would use the word "should" here.



EDIT: Reading through the ToS, I am surprised to learn that there is also a strict prohibition on transferring any and all accounts between two people (5B, sentence #3). Good to know.

Edited 8/6/2017 08:29:51
Alt runs = Ladder Cheating?: 8/6/2017 08:44:40


wakanarai 
Level 58
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With the skype chat we've been looking through the Terms of Service and only thing we could possibly find in there regarding not playing with other accounts on ladders while you still have games to expire is rule 13.A.ix
13. Online Conduct and Abuse
A. Online Conduct and Abuse
(ix) opening and/or using multiple Accounts;


Nowhere else we can find anything within the Terms of Service regarding the behaviour of players on ladders. So with this i think the Terms of Service should be cleared up so that everyone knows exactly what is allowed on the ladders and what is not.
Alt runs = Ladder Cheating?: 8/6/2017 08:49:20


Edge
Level 61
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That's also why i added the warlight wiki, cause it's clarified better there.

In the end it's about what is right and wrong in my mind.

I made this thread so more people will get to know it and can make their own decision about their actions. If u don't follow that specific rule, will u get banned? Probably not. Will u receive a warning? Maybe, maybe not. But people will now know that it's not right to do so. And even if they don't know it, they could get a punishment for it. Not knowing about a crime doesn't safe u from the consequences of that crime.

In the end it's kind of like stalling. U know it's not right and the community in general doesn't accept it, but some people are still doing it, cause they practically won't get punished or just rarely get punished for it. Still that doesn't mean everyone should stall, cause it's a moral standpoint to ensure fairplay, which the majority of the community does. And stalling isn't allowed, as joining alts while u have unexpired games on another account isn't allowed. Everyone has to make up his mind about that rule for that case now.

As i said before i'm actually pretty surprised but i understand the reasoning for it.
Alt runs = Ladder Cheating?: 8/6/2017 08:52:44


TheRiverStyxie 
Level 60
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@ wak .. and also number 3 on the rules page in the wiki..



3) You shall not operate more than one WarLight account in a way that gives you an advantage in a game, tournament or ladder.

Although a detailed clarification in that section would be nice, since it seems open to interpretation.

Edited 8/6/2017 08:59:08
Alt runs = Ladder Cheating?: 8/6/2017 09:26:43


Buns157 
Level 67
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Well looks like its time to ban all these dirty cheaters and make me king :D
Alt runs = Ladder Cheating?: 8/6/2017 09:33:39


Cata Cauda
Level 58
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Conclusion of this discusion: Terms of Service need a revamp.
Alt runs = Ladder Cheating?: 8/6/2017 09:38:54


Min34 
Level 59
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also number 3 on the rules page in the wiki..


Rules should be clearly stated in the game itself not on a wiki imo.
Alt runs = Ladder Cheating?: 8/6/2017 10:31:31


Krzysztof 
Level 66
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Rules should be clearly stated in the game itself

Those rules is something you have to accept before playing first multiplayer game.
Alt runs = Ladder Cheating?: 8/6/2017 15:17:11


Min34 
Level 59
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You only have to accept the ToS I believe. Not the rules stated on the Wiki, right?
Alt runs = Ladder Cheating?: 8/6/2017 15:24:22


Beren • apex 
Level 63
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There is a pop-up with those rules that you have to accept before your first game, as Krzychu said.
Alt runs = Ladder Cheating?: 8/6/2017 15:58:26


wakanarai 
Level 58
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who remembers those after playing for multiple years by now and nowhere else to even find them back
Alt runs = Ladder Cheating?: 8/6/2017 16:02:56


master of desaster 
Level 65
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And who reads them trough? Any person that wants to play usually just accept it.
Alt runs = Ladder Cheating?: 8/6/2017 16:08:05


Min34 
Level 59
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There is a pop-up with those rules that you have to accept before your first game, as Krzychu said.


Alright, I had completely forgotten about this.

Still dont think a simple pop-up is enough. The rules should still be clearly stated on the game itself.
Alt runs = Ladder Cheating?: 8/6/2017 16:08:10


Genghis 
Level 54
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yeah I never read the terms of service for anything I don't care if I'm selling my soul to satan just let me play the god damned game and forget about the painful realities of my life ty
Alt runs = Ladder Cheating?: 8/6/2017 18:26:43


Master of the Dead 
Level 63
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@Fizzer (in case he sees this)
I'd like some clarification on what is acceptable on a team ladder. If one of my team mates goes inactive/retires, am I expected to wait for 5 months before rejoining the ladder because I have unexpired games on one of my teams? I would assume that is not the case since I'm not playing on an alt.

ps - I think there should be some limit on new teams involving the same set of people using different accounts though. This is something which is common practice when someone loses a game and starts a new team with alts to try to get #1

Edited 8/6/2017 18:29:06
Alt runs = Ladder Cheating?: 8/6/2017 18:57:26


LeQuébécois_Benoit
Level 62
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I agree with Supergamerz. As long as nothing is done to reinforce those rules and as long as no further details are provided about the rules (like, alt teams in regular tournaments or alt teams on ladders are common practices) this will continue. Before I did ladder team game runs with myself, I asked around within the strategic community and no one seems to think it is against the rules...And is it? Some of the rules laid-out on the print-screen here are really subject to interpretation. Where does it says clearly you can't ladder or team up with yourself on a same team ladder or NON-COIN tournaments?

People say 2 heads think better than 1, so a good player laddering with oneself is putting himself in a position of handicap compared to 2 good players teaming up and sharing more ideas. As far as RT ladder or 1v1 ladder runs, I totally agree that you should theoretically wait until all games are expired on 1 account before doing runs on an other account but most people will keep doing it until something is done to reinforce this rule.
Alt runs = Ladder Cheating?: 8/6/2017 22:29:35


Expensive Narcotics
Level 53
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"You should wait..." is not legally binding. That's just Fizzer trying to encourage people to act a certain way without writing anything he has to bother to enforce. Since when has our overlord cared about ladder honesty?
Alt runs = Ladder Cheating?: 8/6/2017 22:38:12


tekzen
Level 57
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So let's say I leave ladder with account A and join with account B next day.
I get that unexpired games on account A affect ratings and rank of other players I played on it.
I don't get how can this affect my play on account B. As far as I know, pairing algorithm is very loose and depends far more on games ended in similar time than player rating. Maybe I can get sligthly different pairing because of that, but this possibility is rather theoretical in my opinion. Maybe I can defeat/lose to the same player twice and affect their overall performance because of that, but again, it is too few points to give him any significant dis/advantage. Or not? I don't understand ratings in detail, but this is the only way I can imagine playing with B immediately after A could create a problem...
Alt runs = Ladder Cheating?: 8/6/2017 23:23:27

Rento 
Level 59
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People having more than one account with unexpired games or playing with alts on team ladders is the consequence of low quality of the ladders settings and ranking systems.

People make ladder runs with different accounts because they give a stupidly high advantage. Why float around 20th place when you can hit 1st? Take care of that if you want them gone.

People are playing with alts on team ladders because it takes lots of time and effort to get a good result, which can so easily be destroyed by a teammate boot. You need to communicate, it takes time, it's easier to run out of it. A boot against a low ranked team is not only an auto-loss, it completely butchers up your rating you worked so hard on. So fun!

If only there were options that would not destroy a month of players' effort while still punishing for a boot... Like having your turn carried out by AI for example? Too bad noone thought of that, right?

Look how many team runs end after a boot. It's a plague.

One thing about Fizzer I really don't understand. We have taking control back from AI, we have banked boots. These were not around when I started playing. Fizzer put so much time coding all these options into the game. Why not use them?

Keep in mind: people play the ladders the way they do because they are trying to have fun.
Alt runs = Ladder Cheating?: 8/7/2017 04:09:54


Edge
Level 61
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If you're only playing with your alts on the team ladders that is allowed. It could be different through if u play in a normal team with one of your accoutns, lose a game there and rejoin the ladder with your alts and that account. Than u would have unexpired games on that account, so according to the sentences above this seems not to be allowed.
Alt runs = Ladder Cheating?: 8/7/2017 04:38:22


Platinum
Level 59
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They say downloading movies online is illegal but people do it anyway. Why? No punishment.

No Punishment = the "I don't give a fuck about the rules" type of attitude cause it's gain without consequence.

Everyone has done it at some point of their lives and people do it freely here with no bother. The lack of punishment for doing these things is so extreme that people don't even know that it is against the rules. That fact really says everything...
Alt runs = Ladder Cheating?: 8/7/2017 08:46:05


Dogberry
Level 57
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Communication is the single most difficult attribute for people to master in team games. If you don't believe me, then you probably need to play more large team open games.

The idea that the absence of multiple viewpoints is sufficient enough of a handicap to offset any person's team of alts is ludicrous for all the reasons Rento identified. True teams suffer from a plague, and alts are the vaccination of choice, providing a clear and obvious competitive advantage.

The team ladder does not reward teamwork. It needs to.
Alt runs = Ladder Cheating?: 8/7/2017 09:38:50

Rento 
Level 59
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If you're only playing with your alts on the team ladders that is allowed. It could be different through if u play in a normal team with one of your accoutns, lose a game there and rejoin the ladder with your alts and that account. Than u would have unexpired games on that account, so according to the sentences above this seems not to be allowed.


That would be a bad rule. Now I play with alts on 2v2 ladder. What if I wanted to start a ladder run with a friend? I have to wait 5 months? And then, I play with him, then he loses interest. I need to wait another 5 months before entering the ladder with a different teammate? That makes no sense.
Alt runs = Ladder Cheating?: 8/7/2017 11:36:57


Edge
Level 61
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That's what it looks like. The reasoning behind that rule could be that your previous games still influence the ratings of your former opponents for 5 months, so u need to wait until your games are unexpired to make a new run. Because that's the time were other ratings aren't anymore influenced by your former performances.

Edit: Does that rule makes sense? Yes and No. Yes it prevents completly the gaming on the ladders for your own advantage with multiple accounts. As MotD mentions losing one game leaving the Ladder and directly rejoin with another account shouldn't be the sense of a competitive ladder. But ofc there is another side. 5 months is a pretty long time, which seems to be to long. So i agree that there is definitely a need to execute that rule for quite some time. 2 or 3 months seems reasonable for me. 5 is very long.

Edited 8/7/2017 11:44:50
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