I could not have less of an idea what I am doing =D. I followed the instructions on the wiki and 'clottie' is born. The last instruction is "crack open the code and figure out how it all works". Uh oh.

It is pretty hard IMO to figure out what it is actually doing at first. there are lots of modules that it bounces back and forth between. I have an intermediate knowledge of Python, so I have an advantage over someone that has no knowledge. But the hardest part for me really is understanding what was done already, not what you want to do.

I was doing mine at work, so I am going to install it at home and get back to work on it.

Edited 6/17/2014 14:52:55

Three successful programmers have made CLOTs. Each CLOT has died, due to lack of participation. Here is why participation was low: (1) lack of visibility, (2) lack of integration, (3) lack of assistance from Fizzer.

All three had popular templates:
unknown's strat 1v1 CLOT
PS's 3v3 CLOT and Greece CLOT
Krazy Chew's rotating 1v1 CLOT

Also, in each case, the programmers had to deal with bugs, troubleshooting, monitoring, and fixing problems on a regular basis. They probably decided trying to operate a mini-WL parallel to Fizzer's WL for a handful of CLOT participants was not worth the trouble of unpaid labor.

So, for those of you who think a CLOT is the answer, there is absolutely no evidence to support your idea. But, in contrast, there is plenty of evidence to prove that CLOTs will not be successful in the long-term.

The only way WL will have better templates, more interesting games, and a more competitive environment with higher participation rates is for Fizzer to make new ladders or improve the ladders he has already made.

Fizzer is indispensable. So if he does nothing, WL will not become better. CLOTs are fool's gold.

Edited 6/17/2014 15:43:21

If clots would be added to the ladder tabs, the problem of visibility would be solved. Access over the dashboard would be great!

Having a CLOT tab (and CLOT description pages like we do with clans) would help immensely regarding adoption. Most players do not use the forums.

As for actually making the CLOT, my biggest obstacles have been (1) time and (2) I know a little bit of ruby on rails + a bit of C# but not python/django, so there will be some startup cost to learn how things are set up. It's not something I felt like I could dabble with in my spare time, it seems like a large investment of time just to get started. Am I wrong about this?

I know in ruby on rails I could get started with something by (1) downloading and installing the relevant gem, (2) edit certain functions as I see fit, but (3) mostly everything is set up for me already, I just need to customize. Therefore a tutorial that focuses on this sort of process would be ideal, as well as links to cheap or free hosting. (Like Heroku!)

This is all be stuff I could figure out of course, but I simply don't have the time lately.

Pushover, even if you have the time to get started on a CLOT, you will not have time to monitor the CLOT and eventually you will view the CLOT as a job that takes away from your career (academic and/or professional), your fiends/family, your leisure time. And you will just abandon the CLOT.

Trust me, just save your time. If you are not absolutely committed to seeing a major project through to the end, why waste your time? Just because it sounds good in theory doesn't mean it will be fun or successful.

Anyone who wants to make a CLOT should first talk to unknown, PS and Krazy Chew. I am sure a 30-minute discussion with them would be enough to dissuade you. I haven't talked with them about it, but I can imagine what they would say.

Edited 6/17/2014 15:50:23

A well designed CLOT runs itself. That's the whole point of programming... automation!! The main cost should be up-front, when you're designing the web app, and additional cost for each new feature that is added.

Can some of the other people who ran CLOTS chime in? How much time did running a CLOT take away from you *after you already had it up and running and most the bugs worked out?*

Also the main difference between running a CLOT and, say, hosting a live stream (for me at least) is that the former actually teaches me things that can help my career as a programmer. :P I guess my position is somewhat unique though.

tl;dr: the upfront cost is the biggest obstacle, once it's up and running it should be smooth sailing.

Edited 6/17/2014 15:58:26

I think people should boycott the "We paid Fizzer money to play a game, and therefore he should do whatever we want" argument. It's not true, not fair to fizzer, and makes you look like a crybaby/a righknight/a hiddenhand.

And to complete the circlejerk: ^^THIS^^ :P

edit: holy shit you're allowed to join Master without changing your name??

Edited 6/17/2014 15:59:37

Nobody has to change his name ;) some have the master in the name already ^^

Edited 6/17/2014 16:04:54

Greece CLOT did not die , because of lack of praticipation.
Greece CLOT did die, because you changed it for the worse.

Be thankful that Fizzer set up this game. For who? For us.
Just wait, he's probably going to fix it as soon as he can, and has a better idea.
Like he said in the blog, he has a major idea he's working on he's probably busy. It's also possible that the major idea he's working on is Ladder stuff?

Gui - Lived long enough to become the villain of CLOT city.

I agree without CLOTs being hosted here, they will die. There will be a lack of viability unless you are constantly recruiting players. And since there are no achievements for them like other ladders, that will keep other people from joining them.

The lack of support is the big thing for me. I had mine up and running, but I had lots I wanted to do in it. With a resource pool of 3 people (that Qi mentioned), that isn't a lot. Especially when one is coding a different language (ps) and perhaps none have done what you actually are trying to do anyway. Without Fizzer or some other expert (I know other people helped him write the CLOT system), you are sunk. It takes 10 times longer to figure things out and if the thing is going to lose interest anyway...like Qi said why bother?

I want to finish my CLOT, but not if it will just die.

maybe there can be a "CLOTS" section in "Ladders" in the dashboard? would that solve anything?

I think you failed to realize that Fizzer said the best way to enact change is to show him a better way in actual effect. Clot's as an example for a better ladder, not clots to replace official ladders which quite rightly it never would eclipse.

Can you prevent gaming the system with a Clot? Can you improve on the ranking system with one? Maybe if so, fizzer would look to using that system for the future ladders?

I think my point is that the current ladders are Fizzer's CLOTS, and there can be a section within that section to easily access others' CLOTS.

Discord is right. It has not been shown better another way. But, he is also asking us to develop a better way with no promise of visibility on the site for the CLOT. So we could put tons of effort in and have it die because there is no exposure, achievements, etc.

Okay, yes, what I'm asking is if there is more visibility/exposure for the CLOT's, does that solve the problem? I don't think we'd have to worry about a good CLOT not gaining enough "stature," as plenty of player-made tourney's have become WL staples. Not only that, but someone said ps's CLOT had 50 entries, and it would be even more now.

Fizzer: as an added bonus, could there be a way for CLOT programmers to be able to assign an achievement for those who reach #1? Maybe not gold, but not silver either.

I think giving lots of visibility for CLOT ladders is a fair thing to ask in exchange for a player developing the ladder. Showing CLOT's beside official ladders on community frontpage would be a good thing. There should be some guarantee that efforts of the community will not be in vain.

So, what kind of visibility would a CLOT ladder exactly get?