I'm almost feeling for military intervention to just forcefully end these russian seperatists

Edit: At the least we should be allowed to send detachments of military troops and backing with longbow apache's in order to secure the safety of these international investigators in these areas

you do realise these forces won't come back?

But the more salient point is that there's no reason this should be viewed as more tragic than the countless fatal automobile accidents that happen every day.

I'd slow down for those too. mm mm mm, love a good crash.

What do you guys think of the pro russian seperatists in Ukraine using the deceased bodies as diplomatic bartering chips ??

What about it? They are dead. Better direct your concerns towards the still living.

The fact that they try to do everything to obstruct objective independent investigations seems to suggest the seperatists are indeed the guilty party in this case

An number of question arise here.

A. What are objective independent investigations?
B. Who can conduct objective independent investigations?
C. Who is not obstructing objective independent investigations in his area of influence?

I'm almost feeling for military intervention to just forcefully end these russian seperatists

This call for military intervetion not only shows the usual political and moral naivety that is common for people under the influence of western propaganda, as well as the vast ignorance in the face of the results of past military interventions and their non existant moral justifications and true goals in other areas of the world, nor does it solely reveal the biased view, that paints the conflict black and white, identifying with almost no factual evidence the villain in this coflict, but in this special case of Ukraine it also displays an tremendous amount of lack of knowledge about military relative strength, overestimating western military might and completely ignoring the catastrophic escalation potential up to a thermonuclear repartee.

Edit: At the least we should be allowed to send detachments of military troops and backing with longbow apache's in order to secure the safety of these international investigators in these areas

Where do you get that hilarious statement from? Is it really yours? The whole topic is about a plane being shot down in an altitude of around 10,000 meters by a sophisticated BUK missile system made in the 80s. What do you think will happen to helicoptes that have to engage their target from relatively close distance in low altitude over the landscape? They can be shot down by simple STRELA-2 man pads made in 1960s.

Edited 7/21/2014 18:53:19

Yes they can be shot down but they won't be an attacking force - it's a temporary peacekeeping force in that part

If Russia who controls these puppet seperatists is willing to let them shoot down NATO helicopters and attack NATO military who is just there to secure things are conducted in an orderly manner.........they won't risk that

Btw referring to Western propaganda in the terms of being warlike you're sorely mistaken.....most mainstream media is pacifist at heart...I'm not a warlike person but I do think the western society needs to stop this intimidation and bullying coming from Russia with their desire with lebensraum in the west and the Anschluss of the Krim

Yes they can be shot down but they won't be an attacking force - it's a temporary peacekeeping force in that part

A peacekeeping force with attack helicopters? Peacekeeping forces are mainly groundforces that stand between the fighting parties that agreed to find a peaceful solution, certainly not attack helicopters. They dont even have a mandate to use force, other than if being shot at.

If Russia who controls these puppet seperatists is willing to let them shoot down NATO helicopters and attack NATO military who is just there to secure things are conducted in an orderly manner.........they won't risk that

Russia wont allow NATO troops in the Ukraine to begin with. If that were about to happen Russia would invade. NATO command knows it, Russia knows it, you dont seem to know that.
On a side note, you think the Ukrainian government is not under foreign influence?

Btw referring to Western propaganda in the terms of being warlike you're sorely mistaken.....most mainstream media is pacifist at heart...I'm not a warlike person but I do think the western society needs to stop this intimidation and bullying coming from Russia with their desire with lebensraum in the west and the Anschluss of the Krim

By referring to Western propaganda I refer to it as onesidedly suiting the needs of the plutocracy. Mainstream media is nothing at heart but authority obidient. They purposly disinform the public and establish a wrong picture that leads pacifist at heart like yourself to wrong conclusions.

This statement is exactly the result of the propaganda i mentioned. You refer to bullying by Russia, but completely ignore the bullying by the USA. The USA is violating the ABM Treaty. The USA is the main force behind the NATO eastern expansion. The NATO eastern expansion is a great threat to Russia, they are the ones to complain about bullying and intimidation. The USA outperforms Russia in fighting wars without justification by far. You are not here asking for sanctions against the USA for their injust wars and military involvement in Iraq, Afghanistan, Lybia, Syria and where not. You are not here condemning the countless violations of international law by Western countries. You are condemning it solely in Ukraine because of your western mainstream media bias.

Where are your peacekeeping attack helicopters in gaza? You dont ask for them in Syria, Iraq, or at the Pakistan Afghan border where people are killed daily, by drones that act as judge, persecutor and excetutioner at once, without any legal justification, without a trial.
I encourage you Aranka, since you are a smart person and as you claim to be peaceful at heart, to inform yourself about global politics and historical events beyond the mainstream media.
You would at a point regretfully understand your bias and see the full magnitude of the propaganda we all are exposed to.

Edited 7/22/2014 14:20:50

I agree with most of what myhand says.

utilizing helicopter gunsheds, whose only purpose is to take down numerous enemy units in as short time as possible for peacekeeping. interesting idea. Isn't it exactly what >some country< does to countries with oil resources? :D

"Iran Air Flight 655 was an Iran Air civilian passenger flight from Tehran to Dubai that was shot down by the United States Navy guided missile cruiser USS Vincennes on 3 July 1988. The incident took place in Iranian airspace, over Iran's territorial waters in the Persian Gulf, and on the flight's usual flight path. The aircraft, an Airbus A300 B2-203, was destroyed by SM-2MR surface-to-air missiles fired from the Vincennes. All 290 on board, including 66 children and 16 crew, died." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

On piggy's train of thought. .. Nagasaki and Hiroshima and we cry about 9/11 ?

That wasnt my train of thought. Dont appropriate my name to whatever shit you have to say about 9/11 you bigoted little shit.

I claim it as being similiar to my train of thought. Thanks for posting I didnt know about that particular incident.

In my opinion ( I know little about a BUK system ), Ukraine probably mistook the plane for a possible bomber, cargo, or transport since it is similar in size. They hastily launched the missile at it, but are denying guilt either because of the propagandic Russian victory it'd be, or because of communication failures.

It just may be one of those things we never know what the truth is, though. Either because of the investigation results are 'indecisive', because the results are muffled by somebody, or because investigators may be biased.

"I didnt know about that particular incident." Broadly speaking that supports your point =D. I dont understand how and why some things become common knowlege and other seemingly more pertinent stuff gets ignored. People say it has to do with the media and propoganda but im sure there is more to it than only that. People know about the stanford prison experiment and MK ultra but not about the fact that russia won WW2 or pine gap.

The whole system of human information communication seems to based on stories. ray bradbury gave a speech about the hygiene of writing and the biggest insight from that speech for me was that all stories are metaphors. Id go so far as to say 'story' just means metaphor with a theme and a narrative. things like flight 655 dont fit a story, its not a clear metaphor for something in peoples minds so it falls by the wayside.

Here again i disagree. People know about things they get presented in the media.
Some of your stories have the green light to be told at 8:00 am primetime, some stories are better left untold by those in charge.

An american downed civilian airliner doesnt fit into the public image the US propaganda machine creates of itself. One suppossedly downed by pro-Russian forces does.
Its really not that complicated as you seem to present it. Propaganda is nothing new and has existed since people started to communicate with each other. Information is filtered to suit the needs of the ruling class.

Edited 7/23/2014 02:49:41

never mind

Edited 7/23/2014 03:29:21

Unrelated to all discussion so far, I'm not sure if it's been mentioned either.

But...I thought it was a very stupid move by the Malaysian Airlines to travel above a conflict zone. I know they should never expect to get hit, I would think the rebels made a mistake and confused it for a military plane. But still, I as a person would not travel over war zones. The alternative was quite simple. They could of just taken a detour around Ukraine, lowering the risk completely.

Save the dollars, I guess.

don't blame malaysian airlines for it. most airlines, if not all of them kept flying over ukrainian skies.. and i believe they still do..