@ Ironheart: *shrug* that's just /b/ having fun. Most of the rest of the boards are of the "dont you dare try and take my guns away from me this is 'MURICA" "if only the teachers had guns" "if guns kill people my spoon made me fat" sentiment closer to that lolo was expressing. Not the "america needs tighter gun restrictions" that X was expressing.

Also people like you pointing to 4chan (and reddit, seriously?) as a place full of hatred is unfair. There is a little of everything, you only hear about the more outrageous stuff because it isn't being said anywhere else and makes good headlines.

@trollussa

My analysis is deeper than what i am willing to share right here.
You are religious and believe in god, good for you. I am not starting a debate about that. If you want, you can believe in giant applepies with brains that have created you, or some ideas writen 2000 years ago when people didnt know enough to put faith in the place of knowledge, it would be the same to me.
What bothers me though, don't try to convice me, or tell me my disbelieve is the absence of thought, or some kind of deficit, it is quite the contrary.
That is the kind of arrogance of religous people that offends me.

politically corerct bullshit....

That is the kind of arrogance of religous people that offends me.

You posted 3 images who ridiculized religion and make appear christians like totally stupid people who are against everything of smart or non hypocrite.

I answered you not trying to convince you to become religious at all, or insulting you saying that your disbelieve is for absence of thought, as you did for my believe though.
But I have simply pointed out a common comunications problem that happens between atheists and christians (saying also that christians have the same percentage of fault that atheists have).

But yes I am the arrogant one!
I disagreed with you....

You can pray for my soul

Trollusa, we've talked about this before. You're not allowed to dissagree with myhand!


You're blacklisted.

I like Buddha's statement. It holds truth.

As Americans, we are more inclined to think about tragedies that are in our direct sphere. But should we not weep for our neighbor? Sounds like we would be cold heartless bastards if we didn't.

In no way does that mean the suffering of other parts of the world should be trivialized or thought of less. It shouldn't. Life loss should always be mourned, especially when it is needless and didn't have to happen. No life is intrinsically worth more than another life. The tragedies that happen elsewhere should also be in our thoughts.

There are a number of other reasons why these tragedies occur in Africa, and it simply awful that they occur at all. Not every single world problem is easily fixable, but that does not mean we should not try.

In a perfect world, the ownership of guns would be a non-issue in relation to the violence they may create. Most gun violence is done through ill begotten arms, I believe (may be mistaken). This violence would likely continue with or without the illegalization of guns. Personally I think outlawing something entirely only leads to more problems, look at the era of prohibition, look at the american drug war. This event may have occurred as easily with household items. Yet it happened with guns, and here we have this conversation. A conversation that should be held.

America is steeped in a history of gun culture and there are a number of legitimate reasons guns should be legal. For better or for worse I think guns should be legal. I think the statement "guns do not commit murder, people do" is a good statement in the face of any discussion on this topic. I am unsure morally and hesitant about the efficiency of purely outlawing guns. I think there is something in "American culture" that makes us do these things more often than other industrialized countries. I think you step too far when you punish all for the sins of a few. But my countries faults should be considered and talked about. One of my personal questions is why are other industrialized countries not plagued by these events as it seems America is.

No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government

- Thomas Jefferson, 1 Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334



This is the reason why you think you should keep arms in your society.
But you already have this tyranny of plutocracy and i don't see anyone taking up arms.
The guns are just there to let the poorest kill the poorest on a daily basis (in the ghettos), escalate family conflicts (father shoots family), cause tragic accidents (son killed while playing fathers gun, mother shoots daughter upon return home), increase death toll on killing sprees (columbine high) or equip private and paramilitary groops with more terror potential (blackwater).

But yeah, keep the guns, you are so right.

We don't live in a perfect world. I wish there was no gun violence. Unfortunately, there is.

We have now expressed our thoughts on the principle of gun rights in the United States. Some of us are for the complete outlawing of guns, some are not.

In practicality our discussion so far is for nothing. The complete outlawing of guns is not a practical solution. There are many flaws with both sides of the argument. To me, here are a few issues with your side:

1) Good luck getting it through congress (this will never happen)
2) Guns would then be the next source of an illegal trade (create a much larger issue)

Just because we outlaw a thing, does not make the issues with the thing go away.

And obviously a flaw with my side is this horrific event which sparked this conversation.

It is unfortunate that events like this have to occur for us to have a meaningful conversation on the topic. Hopefully the people who are in charge of my country, are able to manage a coherent conversation and hopefully next time this does not have to occur.

"But should we not weep for our neighbor? "

its not about weeping, its about promoting life, even if that opasses thourgh soem violence, but today's mentalities is totally unable to grasp violence...

PS: obviously im not saying that that kind of violence was promoting lie, but that weeping is even worst

why can't pray lol???

Great post, myhand. Praying wont help if you want to achieve a statsitically credible change. But you know, the placebo effect is a real effect: so praying might help those, who lost someone and believe in the ideology behind praying.

Also, lets not forget about the hundrets of children in the U.S. that die every year of firearm accidents. Just for comparison: There was no such victim reported in whole Japan last year. So, no one can tell me there cant be done a thing about this kind of nightmare. The easy availability of means always carries an increased risk those means wont be used in a proper way. Safety begins with denying easy access to firearms.

@myhand: to prevent children starving is not really comparable to gunman massacres. Its way more difficult to change whole societies and political systems in order to do sth against starvation. You would have to conduct real wars to achieve this goal, sth that carries many risks for things becoming unstable, resulting in changes to the worse. To prevent things like yesterdays elementary school massacre you just need political consensus.

A man who kills innocent people and turns the gun on himself has become dehumanized and has lost touch with social values. Prayer, sympathy, offering of condolences for victims or their families are are natural reactions and a means by which society redefines common values. I think society's reappraisal of its core values is a small but important measure in instilling these values in the minds of others. In this way, it serves a purpose: the more sympathetic people are, the less likely one of us will harm others.

I do not pray. And I will not do anything public to help anyone. But I do not assume that the prayers and sympathetic words of others are useless. Words and actions matter. Logic and emotion matter. To deny one in favor of the other is to deny a part of our human nature.

@ ALL I WANT FOR CHRISTMAS IS HOCKEY

"One of my personal questions is why are other industrialized countries not plagued by these events as it seems America is."

I don't know if you are, with that statement, alluding to "gun massacre" that happen in some certain countries (in this case USA), but if you are, I'd like to give my own opinion.

First of all, I've heard a lot about those massacres in the USA, one in particular that I remember the most is the Colorado university massacre which I've seen on TV (although as a reconstruction) in which was exactly described the murderers' plan of when and where to arrive, when and at who to shoot,... along with actual footages of SWAT team surrounding and later entering the building and rescue scenes after the shooting ended.

Since that incident and the recent ones aswell (Aurora, Sandy Hook) I've started to think that all the incidents that have happened in the USA (that I personally remember and which include gun shooting) occured in the time range of few years (perhaps maybe even 10+ years, my rough estimation) and with several dozens or several tens of victims (my personal opinion, don't be hard). In the Colorado example, when I saw that on TV I was 12 or 13 years old. Now to me at that time and age, to see something like that was very shocking and disturbing.

Back to your statement or question, I'd like to say that there ARE or WERE incidents in the past like these in other countries, however maybe not that often.
Everyone in this conversation and outside it has probably heard, more or less, about the 2004 Beslan hostage crisis in Russia which has, unfortunately, ended in loss of over 300 people (a little more than half of the victims were children). Again, this ended on TV, however, this time it was broadcasted on the news on our state television, no reconstruction, actual footages of dead people lying on the ground covered with sheets or so (I think they were lined up aswell). Note: even though my "name" is in Cyrillic, I'm not Russian.

However, one must consider the difference between Beslan and Aurora, Sandy Hook,...
The Beslan massacre was committed by QUOTE: "separatist militants" while Aurora, Sandy Hook,... massacre were committed by people with high mental instabilities.
Which brings the question; Did the murderers in the US massacres had mental instabilities and if so why weren't they in mental hospitals? Were those tragedies a result of a failed system? Could be...

One of my personal questions is why are other industrialized countries not plagued by these events as it seems America is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rampage_killers:_School_massacres

It has happened around the world. And it will continue to happen around the world.
After Dunblane the UKs gun laws became more restrictive. Same in Germany after Erfurt - Winnenden happened anyways. But to go out and say "arm the teachers" is obscene.

to prevent children starving is not really comparable to gunman massacres. Its way more difficult to change whole societies and political systems in order to do sth against starvation. You would have to conduct real wars to achieve this goal, sth that carries many risks for things becoming unstable, resulting in changes to the worse. To prevent things like yesterdays elementary school massacre you just need political consensus.

No. You won't ever be able to prevent such things from happening in our societies. It would need an effort much more profound than the one we'd need to make to end world hunger (which, btw, is absolutely within our reach - it's just not profitable).
If you're not completely de-sensitized already, there is no easy way out in reacting to events like this. Contextualizing, relativizing, comparing death with death, calling out for 'meaningful political action' (laugh or cry?), prayer... - this very thread - are all coping mechanisms that only work for those who have the luxury not to be directly affected by what just happened to 27 families.
And by next year, we will have forgotten.

Why does it have to be like this everything has to get way outnif hand with you people i can see that of you dont live in america thisntype of thing doesent bother you vecause yiur not close to it but this kind of thing is a rarity so yeah its a tradgedy ok i understandchildren die all over te world o other things BUT since that doesent happen here this is a horrific event i get people who dont pray but your goin to LAUGH abiut it then i will see you in hell my friend because that makes you no better than the man whi did it, ok? I hate when something as simple as please pray forbthe people lost in a TRADGEDY cant just be peayed for, then the world eeally is going to shit because all you bastards care a bout is your fucking gun laws drives me ceazy ok i live in north carolina which like texas has less gun laws abd less crime than say pennsylvania with more gun laws and more crime ok a horrible thing happened and i at least know now who i shouldnt talk about it with because half of you only care avout yourselves and fucking africa


God help you people, really do

No. You won't ever be able to prevent such things from happening in our societies

I d never ever say you can prevent ALL such events, because you cannot perfectly ban all weapons. But did you ever ask yourself why you have so many gun accidents in the USA? And dont you think that having less violence by just making access to guns more difficult makes some sense? It sure is not only a gun thing. Before Columbine we had no pupils running amok here in Germany. Why is that? Maybe it also is the easy availability of violent pictures that burn into the brains of adolecents, waiting there to be copied into real world every once in a while, for whatever crazy reasons. I dont know. But strongly restricting access to firearms sure is more than just a little step into the right direction.

So if my neighbor dies or the guy next to me on a bus, I would be foolish to have an emotional response, or even wish their families well? Instead I should immediately consider the plight of Africans and think "It's really not that bad that my neighbor is dead. The value of human life comes down to simple arithmetic."

They weren't any of our neighbours. You knew them just as little as you know starving Africans. At that point it is simple arithmetic. The hedonic calculus is very useful if you agree on the fundament. C'mon, buddha, you should know better. Remember the woman you sent to get seeds from a household where a death had not occured?

you will be glorificated much more in Heaven.

trollussa is a christian, makes sense.


[/quote]The issue you are trying to argue (in what I assume is gun rights) is separate from this tragedy, and my thoughts in relation will remain separate.[/quote]
12/15 2:40am

It is unfortunate that events like this have to occur for us to have a meaningful conversation on the topic [of gun "rights"]. Hopefully the people who are in charge of my country, are able to manage a coherent conversation and hopefully next time this does not have to occur.

12/15 3:10pm

I'm glad you gained some sort of grasp on reality over those 12 hours, HOCKEY.

to prevent children starving is not really comparable to gunman massacres. Its way more difficult to change whole societies and political systems in order to do sth against starvation. You would have to conduct real wars to achieve this goal, sth that carries many risks for things becoming unstable

Or become a vegetarian. If crops weren't being fed to animals, if the area that those animals occupied were instead used for crops, then there would be plenty more food for everyone. Either that or pray for them, of course, since that makes people feel better, Buddha. Truth is meaningless.

---

It's nice to have myhand on your side. His arguments cohere, and venture beyond simple declarations, which is more I can so for most of you, (most egregiously gui, because he makes his unsubstantiated declarations with such confidence).

Also, if you don't find hell bender's posts funny in a ludicrous way, dead children notwithstanding, then you are an inhuman monster.

So if my neighbor dies or the guy next to me on a bus, I would be foolish to have an emotional response, or even wish their families well? Instead I should immediately consider the plight of Africans and think "It's really not that bad that my neighbor is dead. The value of human life comes down to simple arithmetic."

They weren't any of our neighbours. You knew them just as little as you know starving Africans. At that point it is simple arithmetic. The hedonic calculus is very useful if you agree on the fundament. C'mon, buddha, you should know better. Remember the woman you sent to get seeds from a household where a death had not occured?

you will be glorificated much more in Heaven.

trollussa is a christian, makes sense.

The issue you are trying to argue (in what I assume is gun rights) is separate from this tragedy, and my thoughts in relation will remain separate.

12/15 2:40am

It is unfortunate that events like this have to occur for us to have a meaningful conversation on the topic [of gun "rights"]. Hopefully the people who are in charge of my country, are able to manage a coherent conversation and hopefully next time this does not have to occur.

12/15 3:10pm

I'm glad you gained some sort of grasp on reality over those 12 hours, HOCKEY.

Its way more difficult to change whole societies and political systems in order to do sth against starvation. You would have to conduct real wars to achieve this goal, sth that carries many risks for things becoming unstable

Or become a vegetarian. If crops weren't being fed to animals, if the area that those animals occupied were instead used for crops, then there would be plenty more food for everyone. Either that or pray for them, of course, since that makes people feel better, Buddha. Truth is meaningless.

---

It's nice to have myhand on your side. His arguments cohere, and venture beyond simple declarations, which is more I can so for most of you, (most egregiously gui, because he makes his unsubstantiated declarations with such confidence).

Also, if you don't find hell bender's posts funny in a ludicrous way, dead children notwithstanding, then you are an inhuman monster.

x your the monster for laughing your a real asshole apparently