The way things are going right now, even if Scotland folds under independence (why is everyone saying it would?) AND given that the UK wants to leave the EU...it would be in fact the Germans, the French and everyone else BUT the UK to pick up the pieces.

Even if the UK stays in the EU, it would still be the EU's responsibility, not UK alone.

Scotland won't fold under independence. Anyway an economically strong Scotland benefits the U.K even if Scotland is independent, the borders region (where I am from) and the rest of the U.K trades a lot with Scotland and all of the two countries plc's and many small businesses, are inextricably linked to both countries.

I think Arun is referring to the U.K bailout of Ireland though - which got some money from the E.U alongside punitive cost cutting sanctions and some money from the U.K as solidarity / we really can't afford to see Ireland become destitute.

I agree with you that Scotland won't fold under Independence, yet some think that this would be the case.

Now understand what Arun is talking about, I can see the fear there.

Due to the economic importance of Scotland, I highly doubt that the EU would just let Scotland fail and leave it up the UK to pick up the peaces (if Scotland did fail). The EU is becoming too integrated, the ramifications would be too great.

Interesting piece I just read:

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/independent-scotland-could-join-eu-in-18-months-1-3535302

To be quite honest, I'm not quite sure what kind of ramifications there would be if the UK leaves the EU (as Westminster is suggesting), but would Scotland really be worse off being independent and in the EU or with the rest of the UK leaving the EU? Still up in the air though whether the UK leaves or not, of course.

It's very interesting that there is a push for closer connection and more centralisation between European countries while there is a counter push within many of these countries towards devolution of powers to localised governments or even complete secession.

Why do people think Scotland would fold under independence and what exactly do they mean by fold?

Because the English Government runs it's NO campaign on fear - especially economic fear - you can't use the pound, you can't join Europe, you'll be a small economic nation with no say in (anything!) etc etc.

It's quite sad to see hundreds of years in political union, Scottish dynasties on the British throne in that period, numerous Scottish contributions to the Union and the best the Tories can come up with is fear tactics. Absolutely nothing celebrating what we have - could achieve together ... but then Tories will be Tories it's how they roll.

The media prints it because the government releases the fear pieces direct to them and they don't have to spend resources investigating it - it is news served on a platter (is it really news if the government releases it as a press release? Should that be reported on the facts of only the press release? / Interview? [I guess that's a separate question]) Then the media reports it and obviously some people believe it without further thought.

It is very interesting, and also the comment about Spain and Italy which I tried to ask people about yesterday to almost no avail.

And also the article whilst suggesting Scotland could join the E.U easily - which I agree with - it's in the E.U (and Britain's interest) Also mentions that Scotland would be over a bit of a barrel concerning the Schengen and the Euro. I'd expect Brussels to put huge pressure on Scotland to buy into the Euro idea lock stock and barrel. So it can trumpet Scotland wanting to buy into the full European system at a time when England is so vocally trying for European reform or even a return to Europe as a trading block as opposed to a political union, and whilst Brussels faces huge anti-European gains in even it's strongholds of France, Germany and The Netherlands.

Edited 9/9/2014 14:58:35

Because the English Government

England doesn't have a government.

Yeah tell that to anyone outside of Westminster

Way to tow the party line.

You know as well as anyone else in Britain that it's ruled from London.

If I'd said the Westminster Bubble Government would that make you less pedantic?

I'm not so sure Europe or Scotland would want Scotland to join the Euro. The Euro does not work for perimeter countries. SCotland would likely be better off economically if it kept the Pound Sterling or even its own currency. The Euro is far too inflexible. The core Eurozone countries are unlikely to want to bring in another small country into it's fold when that could easily contribute to more instability.

Most campaigns are run on fear these days.

Brussels needs a victory and Scotland believes it needs to be in Europe.

I believe these two fears will come together. Especially if Westminster plays hardball over the pound.

Well Scotland would have to wait at least 2 years before joining the euro because 1 of the requirements is 2 years membership of ERM II, The UK is not in ERM II, so an independent Scotland would have to join ERM II before joining the euro. A currency Union between the UK and an independent Scotland would require the support of both governments. Considering the UK is against all currency unions, then a sterling zone is unlikely.

However, given the commitment the 3 main parties have set out for "devo-max" if Scotland votes no, I hope Scotland votes yes. Why should Scotland get special treatment? If they're willing to offer Scotland that much regional power, why not offer it to the rest of us?

Edited 9/9/2014 15:30:21

If Scotland becomes independent, I highly doubt Westminster will keep this stance of playing hardball over the pound.

Why would Westminster want to not let Scotland use the pound? Their second largest export market would be Scotland. Not to mention Salmond has already said if Westminister wants to ignore economic reasons of letting Scotland use the pound and be stubborn asses, then he will play hardball and say that if the UK doesn't want to share the pound then Scotland won't share in the debt.

Mablung, for the same reasons we won't join the euro.

I think OMRLP is swallowing the propaganda Mablung. The U.K won't hurt it's economy during one of it's biggest ever economic crises and slowest of almost all the Eurozone's growth. Alongside huge youth unemployment and stagnant wages.

Politics is a popularity contest after all and destroying even more of your economy doesn't win votes.

And there is evidence to support that the Chancellor is spouting nothing more than threats. Sources from within his own government.

Edited 9/9/2014 15:46:12

And the reasons are different anyway.

In the Euro Brussels controls everything for a big big diverse area.

In a Sterling economic zone the Bank of England would control everything from an English point of view. It would set pro-English rates and the Scots would have to just get along, adapt to that they would have no say in the rates at all.

As a Englishman I am not really concerned. It would effect everyone in the UK but not that much. But i would prefer them to stay part of the union.

A currency union would require both the governments agree the UK and Scotland to go down a similar economic path. If one government decides to decrease taxes and increase spending whilst the other decides to increase taxes and decrease spending, then that would create too many inconstancies as 1 country would gather up big debts. In a currency union, the UK might have to bail out an independent Scotland IF it got into trouble, but Scotland wouldn't have the funds to bail out the UK. We (as in the rest of the UK) would end up with the worse end of the deal.

Exactly. It makes little sense for us to allow a currency zone. If Scotland want the UK's currency they can remain part of the UK! Salmond has no answer to this currency issue. He doesn't want the Euro and if we deny a union he said he may turn Scotland into one of those crappy countries using the USD (except they will use the pound)!

And what do you say Arun to those of us living in Cumbria, Lancashire, Teeside, Northumberland or Yorkshire?

Punishing ordinary people be they Scottish or English is ... well it's just mean and cold hearted especially if it's only so you can 'prove' that England is > Scotland :(

Edited 9/9/2014 17:36:08

Why can not Scottish and English live in the same place?
And I think their only problem it financial

That looks better.