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Variant: Extremely Heavy Abandon/Blockade Settings: 12/16/2015 05:26:44


(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 50
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Abandon and blockade cards need to be both very common (1 whole card per person per turn or more) and extremely heavy (abandon at least 1000%, blockade at least twice the strength of abandons, my goal is that a small abandon force should be able to take out an entire big stack of the enemy, a small blockade force can result in a semi-permanent wasteland).

How do you guys think about it? Perhaps we should name it the Wasteland Style since a typical game has 10+ of wastelands at the end of the game with transportation very hard..sometimes the map is completely divided into two parts, like North Korea and South Korea, with a really heavy wall of wastelands separating them...It really looks funny..I mean huge neutral blocks that completely mess up the map in a fashion that typical settings do not result in.

Edited 12/16/2015 05:29:44
Variant: Extremely Heavy Abandon/Blockade Settings: 12/16/2015 05:31:18

M. Poireau
Level 53
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I've played lots of games in this style. It has its advantages (I still like it), but can get really out of hand if the game continues for a long time.
Variant: Extremely Heavy Abandon/Blockade Settings: 12/16/2015 05:40:27


(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 50
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@M.Poireau I love this style. One of the most interesting things is..decide whether to abandon or not to abandon. An abandon that is not hit is often wasting your own armies. Attacking with too much can be disastrous since a small abandon can kill all of them.

I usually set people's income really high (100 and above) to make sure people have the forces to play and occasionally take down abandon walls (such as when an opponent has completely walled himself/herself with abandons) though almost all walls are permanent.

I have not done any blockade yet since it will only be available when I reach L28.

Edited 12/16/2015 05:45:21
Variant: Extremely Heavy Abandon/Blockade Settings: 12/16/2015 05:49:03

wct
Level 56
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Any game links? I've been toying with the idea of making a template based on this kind of thing.

[Only problem with setting income higher is that then the amount of armies available to make big Abandons and Blockades is also higher, so it doesn't really solve the permanency problem. One possibility is to increase the attack kill rate and decrease the defense kill rate, so you can efficiently work down big walls without losing all your troops.]

Edited 12/16/2015 05:51:42
Variant: Extremely Heavy Abandon/Blockade Settings: 12/16/2015 06:00:12


(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 50
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https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=9600278

I used a lot of airlifts as well, also 100-army-bonuses for two Major Cities. These are not necessary for the Wasteland Style. In this example abandons are 2000%.

I do not consider semi-permanent walls a problem. Generally only the winner that already control most of the map break one wall to eliminate the enemy. Walls are possible to be broken but they are not something you are supposed to be able to break with one full turn's income. Almost all walls are intact at the end of a game.

This particular example is funny because finally one guy can hide inside a cave surrounded entirely by abandons from both sides (so this weird situation is not even necessarily intentionally caused by any player) before the game ends.

By the way, the record for the highest abandon in a game I see is 16000+ which is very rare.

P.S. The reason I call these abandon/blockade stacks walls is that they are generally not just present in a few isolated places but instead form several connected walls that radically change the map. For example some walls may surround a big bonus completely, some walls may close off almost all contact with an opponent, some huge walls may even extend from one side of a map to another. So they are indeed what I call them..walls.

Edited 12/16/2015 06:16:35
Variant: Extremely Heavy Abandon/Blockade Settings: 12/16/2015 07:39:21

M. Poireau
Level 53
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Oh, are you only talking about 1v1 games?

I've only done this in FFA games, and there it can really ruin the game in the long-term. (And I do not use anywhere NEAR as extreme setting as you do - for example, my Abandon is only 400%.)
Variant: Extremely Heavy Abandon/Blockade Settings: 12/16/2015 12:54:42


(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 50
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No..I do 1v1 and team games. I may also do some FFA and 2v2v2 in the future. It is actually not extreme..10000% may actually be problematic since it may take a really long time to ever take down one piece of the wall, but 2000% is pretty much good.

Edited 12/16/2015 12:55:47
Variant: Extremely Heavy Abandon/Blockade Settings: 12/16/2015 19:55:41


(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 50
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May I ask..is there anyone interested in Wasteland Style?

I mean abandons should be at least 1000%, preferably 2000%.
Variant: Extremely Heavy Abandon/Blockade Settings: 12/16/2015 20:13:29


Lucarr10
Level 14
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out of interest, is there any difference between abandon and blockade. they seem to do the same thing, just to slightly different magnitudes
Variant: Extremely Heavy Abandon/Blockade Settings: 12/16/2015 20:16:30


willc
Level 55
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Tabby you should not play with a chainsaw, even if he has a dull blade. lol
Variant: Extremely Heavy Abandon/Blockade Settings: 12/16/2015 20:16:56


(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 50
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They are very different. Abandons happen before moving while blockades happen after moving. Hence abandons can kill invading armies while blockades are only effective if you still keep the territory at the end of a turn and can only block invaders starting from the next turn.
Variant: Extremely Heavy Abandon/Blockade Settings: 12/16/2015 20:17:54


willc
Level 55
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Yes abandons are played before moves and blockades after all moves are played.
Variant: Extremely Heavy Abandon/Blockade Settings: 12/16/2015 20:19:02


(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 50
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@willc Why? Yes the setting was rigged to my favour since I'm a very defensive player. But Chainsaw is strong and knew the setting before. He only lost due to his carelessness (basically I expanded fast while he kept hitting me somewhere in Kasai)

Now we are on one team after fighting each other for several games.

Chainsaw is strong, but he needs to be more careful.

Edited 12/16/2015 20:20:31
Variant: Extremely Heavy Abandon/Blockade Settings: 12/16/2015 20:20:03


willc
Level 55
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You can also airlift into the one you blockade.
Variant: Extremely Heavy Abandon/Blockade Settings: 12/16/2015 20:21:09


(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 50
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Yes this will make this style even more defensive...

Edited 12/16/2015 20:23:30
Variant: Extremely Heavy Abandon/Blockade Settings: 12/16/2015 20:22:37


willc
Level 55
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Tabby my comment about Chainsaw with a dull blade is a private joke with the rest of your clan.
Variant: Extremely Heavy Abandon/Blockade Settings: 12/16/2015 20:27:14


(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 50
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It is pretty weird. Really good players such as Smileyleg know how to play such a weird style. Though in our first Congo game involving him he lost 500+ armies to our huge airlift at last when his teammate was booted after losing 100 to our abandons. But it is already after they are 250+ armies below us in income and Smileyleg had to try to get one 100-army bonus back from us which we took from AI. He was really careful before that. An ordinary and inexperienced guy would have lost his forces to our airlift a long time ago.

Edited 12/16/2015 20:29:47
Variant: Extremely Heavy Abandon/Blockade Settings: 12/16/2015 21:21:56


willc
Level 55
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My girlfriend did not say anything about me being inexperienced did she.? lol
Variant: Extremely Heavy Abandon/Blockade Settings: 12/17/2015 01:23:37


(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 50
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@willc I'm happy as a dude without a chick. Cats are forever better than girls.

Do you like the Wasteland Variant, may I ask?

Edited 12/17/2015 01:24:03
Variant: Extremely Heavy Abandon/Blockade Settings: 12/17/2015 02:34:59


Fleecemaster 
Level 59
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My personal view is that "mega-abandons create terrible games, the only thing you can do it heavily limit the number of them available to the player.

For example, you could maybe give the player 3 total (they get no more) so they can create strategicly placed wastelands or something...

Saying that, if you're just talking about 1v1s, I suppose really "anything goes" so long as each player has equal opportunity. because it will just go down to who holds the largest income (assuming the lower income player trapped behind a wall of 100000 neutrals actually surrenders, else it'll just be the longest Warlight game in history :P)

Sometimes with cards there's a fine balance to when it's "just right" for the purpose, sometimes all you can do is run test games with friends to see how it plays out :)

Edited 12/17/2015 02:40:04
Variant: Extremely Heavy Abandon/Blockade Settings: 12/17/2015 03:22:46


(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 50
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@Fleecemaster: this is the first ever game in my typical Congo 2v2 Four Cities Setting:
https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=9525250

It worked pretty well. In fact these 2000% cards are very useful. It should also be fine if I convert the template to a 4FFA though not all slots are necessarily equal. The slots are based on real Congolese history, not game play. I put Rwanda in because it often interferes in Congolese affairs.

I'm doing a Congo 5v5 Ten Cities with almost identical settings which also works. We managed to divide the entire map into West Congo and East Congo with land transportation between them completely impossible since all connections became walls the highest of which is 2600 armies. When it is over I will let you guys see the funny divided map...
Variant: Extremely Heavy Abandon/Blockade Settings: 12/17/2015 22:54:58


(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 50
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Today a new record has been broken by our dear TJC member, Eklipse.
He managed to abandon 1090 armies at Brazzavile to protect his Capital of Kinshasa. So the highest abandon ever in any Congo n Cities game has been created: 21800 armies, which is 218 times of a person's starting income and 43.6 times of a team's starting income.. The previous record was Myn with 16020 armies..

Well this wall will not be taken down anyway.

Now the map has been divided into 4 parts, East Congo, NW Congo, SW Congo and the (completely walled by abandons from all sides) City State of Kinshasa by abandons with no land transportation possible between any two of them. Meowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww!

Edited 12/18/2015 01:47:04
Variant: Extremely Heavy Abandon/Blockade Settings: 12/21/2015 03:10:46


(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 50
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Meowwwwww
The first clan event on Wasteland Style ever:
TJC vs Olympus
This event will take place in two months.
Let's see what happens meow!
Variant: Extremely Heavy Abandon/Blockade Settings: 12/21/2015 03:35:08

M. Poireau
Level 53
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Why do you need such "extreme" wasteland settings? What is the goal, design-wise or strategy-wise?
Variant: Extremely Heavy Abandon/Blockade Settings: 12/21/2015 03:44:58


(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 50
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It makes the game very funny. It is true that there are so many abandon cards and they are so powerful, you never win by keep abandoning everywhere. New 5000% blockade cards have been added to a new template though we have never played any games using it.

These cards create and promote new strategies that are unavailable under the more popular settings.

Also it is true that the style is currently called "wasteland", in reality few people abandon just in order to create wastelands. You have enough abandon cards to do way more than that.

Edited 12/21/2015 03:49:14
Variant: Extremely Heavy Abandon/Blockade Settings: 12/21/2015 03:53:31

M. Poireau
Level 53
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I understand the purpose of Abandon and Blockade cards (and I always use heavy settings for those cards: 400% and 800%, which allows the creation of *enormous* wastelands). But I've never felt like my games would be improved if I increased those values further! I mean, is there a meaningful difference between a wasteland of 2000 and one of 20000?
Variant: Extremely Heavy Abandon/Blockade Settings: 12/21/2015 04:00:15


(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 50
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@M. Poireau: No meaningful abandons of 3000+ have ever been created because this means you use 150+ armies which is no longer yours after the abandon. When everyone's income is mostly 100-200, 150 is a huge number.

It is true that mega-abandons have been created but these are 1. very few and 2. never have any real effect on the gameplay. People simply do not have the resources to create that many abandons that are that high. People may do that for legitimate reasons but they are never numerous enough to make entrance into the target territory impossible. What really happens is several walls of 100-3000 abandons with most of the "bricks" having heights below 500.

The real reason 2000% abandons is great is that I want to encourage abandoning as a form of defense. You spend less armies to create an abandon than you would if the rate is lower. But I do not do 10000% either since this means there is almost no cost of abandoning which is also undesirable. Mathematically we can imagine the extreme case, abandon rate is positive infinity. Of course this is not possible but if possible you might just take and abandon anything around your one tiny piece of territory so that the game reduces to a game of booting. The same applies if a reasonably high rate and enough abandon cards exist and you are reasonably far away from any enemy so you can perform this trick.

There are many reasons to abandon. One reason is to kill enemy stacks which only work if the enemy is either an AI or forgets the setting. Another reason is to block the enemy. One last reason is to mess up with the enemy when you only have one last territory which is indefensible and you have no way out. The last reason is what causes most of the mega-abandons.

Edited 12/21/2015 04:18:18
Variant: Extremely Heavy Abandon/Blockade Settings: 12/21/2015 04:37:47


Lord of Turnips
Level 57
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This game had fairly powerful abandon cards https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=9303639.
Variant: Extremely Heavy Abandon/Blockade Settings: 12/21/2015 05:51:17

M. Poireau
Level 53
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Your explanation about the value of the cards makes a lot of sense. However, I see exactly the same effects and the same actions in my games. (Without the danger of an impossibly large wasteland!)

I'd imagine you'd have more emergent problems in larger games (especially FFAs) or maps with common chokepoints.

Do you see any main advantage to those higher settings? I can see that the abandons and blockades are significantly cheaper, but I find them extremely useful at 400%/800% as it is (I've never seen a player let an opportunity to use one pass by, so advantageous are those odds).
Variant: Extremely Heavy Abandon/Blockade Settings: 12/21/2015 06:10:19


(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 50
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Another factor is the number of abandon/blockade cards. We not just have way larger abandon cards, we also have a huge amount of them. It is not divided into 8 or 11 pieces, instead there is one full card for each player every turn. So instead of making wastelands occasionally you generally have more abandon cards than you can ever use. That's why instead of big stones only we also get continuous walls.

In the current 5v5 for example we have 37 abandons done by both sides.

I do not think FFA can cause problems though big choke points may cause a little bit trouble at 5000%.

To me plenty of extremely heavy abandon cards completely changed how the games are played. For example people do not dare to attack a human opponent's armies with full armies because they know their opponent has almost endless supply of heavy abandon cards and their attack with 100 can be completely killed off by an abandon of 8 armies while the enemy has an average income of 100+ and can afford to abandon and do other things at the same time though their ability to do other things are sometimes hampered.

Edited 12/21/2015 06:19:30
Posts 1 - 30 of 42   1  2  Next >>   

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