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Hypothetical scenario: a cult that controls humans: 11/14/2016 01:47:10

(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 51
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Imagine that someone has invented a cult which is designed to control humanity at any cost. What will be characteristics of that cult?

The cult is not invented for the purposes of deceiving cult members into providing money, sex or both. Instead the main purpose of this cult is absolute power over humanity and perhaps realization of ideals of the founder(s). Furthermore the cult is willing to exterminate almost all of humanity (that means, everyone that is not part of the cult and do not wish to join) in order to establish total control over humanity.

Some ideas:
1.Will this cult be partly or entirely based on ancestry? Racist cults inherently have less appeals to the public, however they can be more appealing to the ancestry-based group the cult can be blended with ethnic nationalism or racism and hence can be harder to dislodge. If one can use a racist cult to exterminate everyone else physically or at least subjugate them it may work better than a universal one.
2.Will this cult accept science? I believe acceptance of science can make the cult stronger because it does not contradicts science.
3.Will this cult have a cult of personality? I tend towards the negative answer. The cult does not exist for the purpose of the founder being worshipped by people. Furthermore the purpose of the cult is to further itself (the brand), not to glorify one person. Hence it should be sufficiently flexible that the mistake of one person can not fatally end the cult.
4.All cult members are expected to put the cult first and everything else should be secondary.
5.Will this cult claim to be a part of an existing religion? Maybe. By doing so the cult can be more appealing. However accepting an existing religion will also result in it being restricted by that existing religion both in beliefs and in practices.
6.The cult needs mechanisms to prevent people from defecting. Discouragement is one mechanism but it will not be enough.
7.The cult needs to have a military and political wing.

Edited 11/14/2016 02:05:50
Hypothetical scenario: a cult that controls humans: 11/14/2016 01:59:47


Cata Cauda
Level 57
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No no no no no no no! Tabby, just no!

We dont want an authority that controls everyone! I want my freedom. An united Humanity is not good for everyone. Also I wanna believe what I believe and not what such a stupid "cult" says.

What are you aiming for? 4th Reich? Not with me. I will fight for my independence.


I dont support Anarchism, but an absolute state isnt what I want!


Edit: Stop editting and adding new things. Start your thread when its finished.

Edited 11/14/2016 02:01:36
Hypothetical scenario: a cult that controls humans: 11/14/2016 02:00:51

(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 51
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I'm not starting that cult. :3 It's just another doomsday discussion game.

There will be people who will actually do that and this can be very disastrous. I won't do that though.

Hint: Just look at Scientology. Despite having less than 1 million adherents Scientology is much more destructive and controlling than what you can imagine. It even has its own intelligence service. A militant Scientology-like "religion" that is non-racial, requires no donation, no sex while having as many religious warriors as Islam will be a global nightmare. I'm talking about a combination of National Socialist Germany, Soviet Union, Islamic State, Khmer Rouge, Scientology, Heaven's Gate, North Korea, Mongol Empire and all other destructive forces. It will be more educated, more controlling and more brutal than every single human group before it with its main purpose absolute control.

Edited 11/14/2016 02:07:36
Hypothetical scenario: a cult that controls humans: 11/14/2016 02:07:30


Жұқтыру
Level 55
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It's just another doomsday discussion game.


my favourite genre of game is doomsday discussion
Hypothetical scenario: a cult that controls humans: 11/14/2016 02:09:00


Empire of Kilos
Level 32
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It already exist's, and is known as "Social Justice" with it's Cult Members being known as "Social Justice Workers"
Hypothetical scenario: a cult that controls humans: 11/14/2016 02:09:41


Cata Cauda
Level 57
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SJW detected.

Edited 11/14/2016 02:11:03
Hypothetical scenario: a cult that controls humans: 11/14/2016 02:10:09

(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 51
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^^That's nowhere close to what I'm describing. I'm talking about some movement, religious or secular, that is willing to exterminate all non-members even if that means only ten thousand humans will survive (all members of the cult). It can not be like a purely racist movement like NSDAP where Germans that did not support the Party were not all executed. It can not be like the Soviet Union where people can sometimes survive gulags. It can not be like ISIS which at least allowed some non-believers (Christians) to survive when they pay a heavy fine (Jizya). It can not be like the Mongol Empire which allowed people to surrender without giving battle and keep their lives. It can not be like any patriarchal system that allow enemy girls to survive as concubines and even sexual slaves. It can not be like many religious groups that believe in things skeptics do not believe in due to lack of evidence such as creationism. It can not be like some cults which focus on giving its founders money and/or sex. It needs to be a serious movement, not a movement led by con-artists. It needs to be so controlling that its members are willing to do anything for the movement, including dying (glorified as martyrdom).

It's a hypothetical controlling and destructive movement that does not evolve naturally but instead is consciously designed to incorporate destructive and controlling features from past examples to maximalize its power.

Edited 11/14/2016 02:23:15
Hypothetical scenario: a cult that controls humans: 11/14/2016 02:23:12


Major General Smedley Butler
Level 49
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We're not helping you take over humanity, Tabby
Hypothetical scenario: a cult that controls humans: 11/14/2016 02:24:11

(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 51
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^^LOL not me. But there is certainly some loophole/opportunity to do so. Modern technology will make it possible to actually exterminate all but one group in the future. It will also make surveillance possible to be almost absolute. The fact that modern people are so peaceful (even Stormfront people are not murderous at all!) makes us blind to the possibility that an extremely deadly movement can arise. All it takes is a dictator so brutal that he/she is willing to murder all but his/her own small group of 1-100,000 people.

^Zionism is not that deadly, at least not in the past and not right now. You are right that it does not have to be religious at all. For example Stalinism was a bit close to that goal but it was not inherently aimed at extreme destruction of opponents.

Edited 11/14/2016 02:34:31
Hypothetical scenario: a cult that controls humans: 11/14/2016 02:32:02

(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 51
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This is what Scientology did.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Guardian%27s_Office_operations

It shows us how destructive an organization can be.

Edited 11/14/2016 02:32:39
Hypothetical scenario: a cult that controls humans: 11/14/2016 02:33:21


Жұқтыру
Level 55
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It already exists, and it is known as "Caninism-Islamism-Nazism" with it's Cult Members being known as "Muslim Nazi Dogs".
Hypothetical scenario: a cult that controls humans: 11/14/2016 02:36:55

(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 51
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This nightmare is a bit similar to that in "1984". However its anti-sexualism, intentional deprivation of goods and paranoia among Ingsoc members (send those that aren't really dissidents to Miniluv) are unnecessary. More importantly there should be no way Oceania ever tolerates the very existence of Eurasia and Eastasia in such a system. In such a system there should be only one force on Planet Earth, namely Ingsoc. That's it.

Edited 11/14/2016 02:41:30
Hypothetical scenario: a cult that controls humans: 11/14/2016 02:38:43


Жұқтыру
Level 55
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i had a bad nightmare that year it was about what if clouds were folk
it was pretty scary
and so i was scarred
but anyhow I dreamt I was a cloud of the rain kind and was a rain god for some dinosaurs
and so I sleepwalked to the couch and pissed on it
(true tale)
Hypothetical scenario: a cult that controls humans: 11/14/2016 16:29:41


OxTheAutist 
Level 58
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I call this cult Felidae.
Hypothetical scenario: a cult that controls humans: 11/14/2016 16:31:57

(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 51
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^No it's not. Felidae is not aimed at exterminating every WL organization and player outside it.

Such a cult/movement needs to be completely determined to exterminate:
1.All opponents
and more importantly
2.All non-members

For such a movement bystanders are targeted just like enemies.

Edited 11/14/2016 16:33:27
Hypothetical scenario: a cult that controls humans: 11/14/2016 17:11:25


OxTheAutist 
Level 58
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I will not listen to your propaganda, Tabby The Terrorist!
Hypothetical scenario: a cult that controls humans: 11/14/2016 17:17:31

(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 51
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^Libel.
Hypothetical scenario: a cult that controls humans: 11/14/2016 18:55:32


[FEL] The Prince of Felidia
Level 55
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7.The cult needs to have a military and political wing.
1. Yes. It depends on if your ancestry is entirely cats. If not, you're screwed.
2. The cult is mew about science
3. The cult is set out to glorify cats.
4. The cult members go WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEH WE NEED YEH when someone leaves
5. No, it doesn't claim to be part of a religion.
6. I left it. I just went lol muddafuckas im leaving ur trolls. Nt hard.
7. It beleieves that cats should be in the military and it is cat-wing (a form of right wing)
Hypothetical scenario: a cult that controls humans: 11/14/2016 19:59:34

(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
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^4. That's the difference between Felidae and that hypothetical cult. Here we are still nice to you even if you defect. In that cult (or Saudi Arabia) that will result in death penalty.
Hypothetical scenario: a cult that controls humans: 11/15/2016 01:52:32


Benjamin628 
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Hypothetical scenario: a cult that controls humans: 11/15/2016 07:33:52


[FEL] The Prince of Felidia
Level 55
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^^Kek I hate you.
Hypothetical scenario: a cult that controls humans: 11/15/2016 12:39:11

(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 51
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^I won't actually form such a cult. However someone may do.so. It's a logical possibility.

Most modern people are completely scared of death and cruelty since we have less wars than 100 years ago. However groups such as ISIS and Los Zetas have abused this fact and intentionally be extremely cruel.

Edited 11/15/2016 12:42:07
Hypothetical scenario: a cult that controls humans: 11/15/2016 21:07:06

wct
Level 56
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Imagine that someone has invented a cult which is designed to control humanity at any cost.

No need to imagine it, many religious sects already fit that bill.
Hypothetical scenario: a cult that controls humans: 11/15/2016 21:25:26

(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
Level 51
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^No major religion is as deadly as a cult that I have described.
Hypothetical scenario: a cult that controls humans: 11/15/2016 22:16:11

wct
Level 56
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Tabby, have you looked into the concept of memes? Specifically, Dawkins' original definition of them? And how they relate to religion? If not, I highly recommend reading Dawkins' book The Selfish Gene: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Selfish_Gene

It will help you understand how the concept of evolution applies not just to biology and DNA, but also to culture. If you take that perspective, then you'll see that the extreme version of the cult you describe is very unlikely to arise (regardless of whether it is designed or not). Such blatant extermination of anyone else other than its own members is very unlikely to thrive in the modern environment where it has to compete with so many other cultures/ideologies.

The only kind of cult that can achieve such a giant goal of exterminating all non-members would *have* to do so surreptitiously; it couldn't do it in the open. And if you admit such surreptitious world-domination schemes, then I repeat my assertion that we already have such cults. They simply try to take a much longer-term view of domination.
Hypothetical scenario: a cult that controls humans: 11/15/2016 22:56:59

(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
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^Thanks for giving this link! I will look into it. :3

The issue with the ideology I described is that it does not intentionally spread through conversions like Christianity or Islam. Instead it does not desire to spread at all. Instead it just brutally murder everyone else without even explain to them what that meme/ideology/cult is. In the past such an idea was completely infeasible since it was pretty hard to exterminate any major group of human. With modern technology it's increasingly likely that a small group of people or even just one individual can start a sudden coup and exterminate everyone else (through bioweapon + robots for example). A group that does that does not have to be a religious, political or ancestry-based group. In fact the most likely potential culprits are misanthropists with enough knowledge and access to these technologies.

Just think about George Sodini or Elliot Rodgers. Now imagine them having access to a button that can fire all nuclear weapons a major country possesses for the purpose of igniting a global nuclear war + devastating all major cities on Planet Earth (Using this table, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_metropolitan_areas_by_population ) with the intention to exterminate humanity or at least cause as much harm as possible to humans. There will always be people like that. However in the past (and at present) such people usually can not cause 1000+ deaths. In the future with more advanced weapons the possibility of such rage attacks can increase dramatically.

Edited 11/15/2016 23:03:12
Hypothetical scenario: a cult that controls humans: 11/17/2016 01:25:31

wct
Level 56
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The issue with the ideology I described is that it does not intentionally spread through conversions like Christianity or Islam. Instead it does not desire to spread at all.
Well, there you go, that's flaw number one. It can't spread if it doesn't even try to spread itself in any way.
Instead it just brutally murder everyone else without even explain to them what that meme/ideology/cult is.
And when those murderous members get killed, their ideology/memeplex gets killed with them. Then the ideology goes extinct.

It's like an animal that doesn't bother trying to reproduce, it just goes around killing everything it sees (not of its own species). Pretty soon, that species will be extinct, when the other animals fight back.
With modern technology it's increasingly likely that a small group of people or even just one individual can start a sudden coup and exterminate everyone else (through bioweapon + robots for example).
'Increasingly likely' is not the same thing as 'likely'. Increasing the likelihood from 1 in 10^1000 to 1 in 10^100 is a *huge* increase in likelihood, but it's still an extreme unlikelihood.

If you're just thinking about a hypothetical sci-fi scenario, that's fine. But if you're thinking about the real world, you have to do a lot more to explore the *actual* likelihood of such a scenario coming into reality in the first place.

It's like this: If faster than light travel was possible, then we could colonize the Andromeda galaxy in a few thousand years! Wow! (But if faster than light travel is not possible, then we can't. Sigh.)

So, I urge you to try to imagine: How could we *possibly* get to the point where such a small evil cabal could gain such power in the first place? And how *likely* is that possibility in the real world? Which of these possible scenarios are the most likely, and which are least likely? (Focus on the most likely ones.)

Again, if it's just a hypothetical, imaginary sci-fi type of scenario, then sure, anything can happen. But that's not something we should actually be worried about in real life.

Edited 11/17/2016 01:40:27
Hypothetical scenario: a cult that controls humans: 11/17/2016 01:53:00

(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
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^A cabal that really cares about its own existence is pretty much unlikely to be extremely murderous unless they at least spare probably 50,000 people since lack of genetic diversity is detrimental to the existence of a species. I don't think any non-evolutionary interests can motivate any rational person, however brutal, to perform such a mass murder for a secular reason which does not help the perpetrator at all. Extreme racists may do that though since they will preserve more than 50,000 people. However this level of extreme brutality is beyond what their compatriots (that are of course left living) can accept. (There is a reason why even National Socialists did not plan for a global total extermination of all but a small in-group. There is also a reason why SS members got sick of murdering everyone by hand and had to use gas instead, namely this level of brutality is beyond human nature. Humans can be evil but usually not that evil.)

So there leaves several main motivations for this level of extreme brutality:
1.Elliot Rodgers-type suicide-mass murder.
2.Religious attack.

Neither 1 nor 2 needs to actually result in human extermination. However a suicide-murderer in 2050 may actually get to kill a billion humans and make several major cities uninhabitable for 50 years unlike right now when a suicide-murderer usually does not get to murder more than 50 people. A religion-motivated attack like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokyo_subway_sarin_attack in 2050 using nukes may actually kill even more people.

An attack of type 1 is not very hard to accomplish. Imagine a misanthrope who is also a talented programmer. He/she writes a virus to infect nuclear weapon systems of Country A. Then he/she use nukes of Country A against Country B for the purposes of:
1.Murdering citizens of Country B.
and
2.Luring Country B into firing nukes against Country A in retaliation.

I personally believe that Step 2 can be pretty hard due to the existence of the Hotline between Country A and Country B. When Country B notices that Country A does not know why it does not control its own nukes (and has no reason to attack Country B at all!) it won't retaliate. More importantly nukes from Country A do not actually hit any military target but only target major cities. There is no other attack from Country A against Country B either. Hence it's clear that a malicious hacker instead of Country A is behind the attacks.

There are other potential methods an individual or a small cabal can destroy a significant part of the world, mainly biological weapons. There is almost no way a small cabal can own enough chemical weapons or robots to cause 10,000+ casualties. Nukes are dangerous because even one nuke can destroy a major city. Nukes are already there. The only obstacle a rogue individual or cabal has is how to activate them. It's much easier for a rogue cabal to use some robots or computer viruses to activate nukes than for it to invent some new biological weapon and spread it (by vehicle?).

Edited 11/17/2016 03:07:19
Hypothetical scenario: a cult that controls humans: 11/17/2016 02:55:08

(((Tabby Juggernaut)))
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^^
What do I believe? Maybe this threat is possible today. If some military member with access to nukes go Rodgers or go ISIS we will see at least one major city nuked. (The rest probably won't because I believe further attempts will be thwarted unless the rogue cabal attempts to nuke a militarily weak country. Well even that will result in the international community responding within one hour).

Edited 11/17/2016 03:02:28
Hypothetical scenario: a cult that controls humans: 11/17/2016 03:34:43

wct
Level 56
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I haven't completely read your ^^ post yet, but want to reply quickly while I have the thought in mind.

Basically, I've also been thinking about this kind of possibility for the past several years now, off and on just pondering over it. The main difference is that in my imagined scenario, the cabal/cult doesn't just want to kill non-members, it literally wants to wipe out humanity altogether, so it fits more with the murder-suicide version you talk about.

So, I've been trying to imagine, 'What is the most likely possible scenario for that to actually happen?' My conclusions so far (this is what might be useful for food for thought for you):

- It pretty much has to be an irrational ideology, either a religion or other reality-denying ideology. They would need to believe that they are achieving an enormous good by exterminating humanity.
- Thus, it will spread memetically. (I notice that your recent post conflates the 'success of the individual' with the 'success of the ideology'. That's a basic mistake that a lot of people make, and it's one of the things that Dawkins' idea of memes helps to understand. Memes don't have to care about their hosts in order to be successful; e.g. suicide bombers.)
- Thus, it will need to have a core ideology that is recorded in some way (e.g. a holy book, or, more likely for a future religion, a holy doctrine in digital form, perhaps a holy Bit Torrent file or something).
- It won't use just a single method of extermination. It will try to use them all, simultaneously, in an effort to overwhelm any possible defence. This is similar to how doctors try to kill antibiotic-resistant bacteria by using multiple antibiotics in a 'cocktail' simultaneously to make sure the bug gets totally wiped out with no survivors (any survivors would obviously be the most resistant of the bacteria, making the infection even harder to treat in the future if it comes back).
- So, it will try to do a simultaneous nuclear, biological, chemical, conventional, etc. attack on the entire planet.
- The members of the cult with the most worldly power might even harness a large asteroid, or a hundred of them, and cause them all to fall simultaneously on different parts of the world to cause a Dinosaur-extinction-like event, aka an impact winter.
- With all these attacks simultaneously, it's possible that all of humanity could be wiped out entirely.
- This is *possible*, but how could it be *likely*?
- It could only be likely if the cult/ideology was wide-spread enough that it could harness all these technologies with enough control to ensure that the simultaneous attack is successful.
- Thus, this ideology would have to be very wide-spread. Which means it has to be something that a large portion of people would be susceptible to believing.
- Perhaps a mixture of existing religious ideas, from major religions like Christianity, Islam, Judaism, maybe even Hinduism and other world religions.
- Since it spreads memetically, it has to have a reasonable-sounding but ultimately unreasonable core ideology. Almost certainly it will be faith-based like most religions are.
- Such an ideology could not gain such a wide-spread foothold on the planet if reason, rationality, and science-based understanding are also widespread and influencing those in power.
- Therefore, this must be the kind of world where people are swayed by corrupt politicians and corporations even worse than they are today. Where science is even more disparaged publicly than it is today. Political chaos and war will have to be rampant world-wide. Only then could such a degenerate ideology of ultimate mass human extermination take root and flourish.
- Etc.

I could go on, but that's a pretty good snapshot of where my 'most likely/plausible' future scenario exploration has led me.

We already have religions that want to take over the world. We already have doomsday cults. We already have many/most of these technologies. It's not inconceivable that such a twisted ideology could come to be, and given the right conditions, it could even spread around the world like wild-fire. Then work its way into world-wide political power structures to gain access to the necessary technology. Then pick a date for the big attack. Then boom. Humanity gone, by its own device.

Not very likely, of course. But of the scenarios I've imagined, it's the most likely one I've gotten so far.

[Why would I imagine such a messed-up scenario? Why, to prevent it, of course! But that's a whole 'nother story.]
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