And that would take all of the fun out of the game.

The wastelands would have to be distributed to places where players weren't started, that's easy enough. The process of discovery of where those wastelands were would spice the game up quite a bit I think, lending an extra importance to scouting.

As to your other point about preknowledge of starting spots, that's true although I think there are enough bonuses out there that there would always be a question (hmm he's either here or here or here) whereas with the manual pick system players often gain hard intel about people's starting location, so I think it would actually lessen a preexisting problem, not exacerbate it.

As to handing games here and there to players of lesser skill, I don't see that as a problem - it would please them and keep them interested in playing, and over time the luck would average out in any event and the stronger players would find themselves on top of the ladder just like usual ... Still and all, it's just pleasing conjecture, I doubt the idea will ever gain enough traction to fly.

Under your system the likelihood of losing due primarily to poor staring position would be minimized if not outright eliminated so your last point is moot.

Would certainly be an interesting endeavor though I don't know whether it would be worth the significant effort involved

Richard, could you clarify something you said earlier?

"In auto a player can win solely thanks to the luck of the draw in distribution. I don't know about you but I'd much rather win by skill than luck."

The question is that is there any luck involved with doing a manual distribution to you? It sounds like you were saying that manual does not involve luck. Is that a correct assumption or did I look too much into your earlier comment?

I don't know what Richard meant, but with Manual it is possible to thoroughly reduce and often eliminate luck as a factor in starting positions. While it may seem that one person getting first pick of the "best" starting location is a matter of luck, good skill on the part of the other player with counterpicks makes that into a poor choice, and balance is restored purely by skill.

All six picks are important, and using them correctly takes a huge amount of skill. It may not be tactical skill, which I think is what devil is interested in mostly, but it can be a meta version of tactical skill, in understanding how the board would play out from various starting positions, and knowing which start combinations favor which players.

SGV, I don't see there being luck involved in a manual distribution beyond who gets first pick and even that is debatable.

Manual allows the player near full control and on a good map should allow for strategic positioning and the ability to counter/defend opponents positioning.

With random you may get stuck with bad bonuses or be surrounded by wastelands and doomed from the start. That would never happen through manual... you will only start in positions that you feel are beneficial and tactically important.

Thank you for clearing that up. I can see some of your point and I will agree with you that the player does get to pick what they believe will be best for them instead of it being random.

I will say that my opinion on Manual is that there is two parts to the luck, who gets first pick and where did they pick. If two people picked the same area, the player with first pick will likely have a small advantage when the game begins. Though, any advantage given there is most likely less that the advantage the server might give on auto.

(I will say that auto is fun for me as I must learn how to defend different areas that I might not normally choose)

Another suspenseful (and potentially "luck based") part of manual distribution is which "good" picks a player makesin a starting area. I generally like to group my picks 1-2, 3-4, 5-6. If I see an area (2 starting territories) I like, I have to assume my opponent will see it as well. So which do I pick 1, and which 2? Just have to guess and hope for the best.

I didnt really read Your posts, but I guess they are about auto/manual distribution.

If it goes about my oponion about it, I believe auto distributin is the only way of actually playing the game. In manual distribution games are won before they are even started. In auto distribution You got spots and You have to figure out what to do about them. You have to think while the game is going on, NOT before the game starts.

This is that simple and I dont understand what are You discussing about.



And about my match with Heyhuehei - he still didnt move.

Of course some games end up in the beggining. They are defined by the positions EITHER on manual or auto games.
In manual you are responsible for your own luck, and if you think you are loosing in the beggining you are worse than your opponent, because if he knows more about picking he also probably know more about everything else.
There are a few players that play with me that can counter my picks effectively, because I very rarely have the feeling that i lost in the beggining. I know all possible combinations and always expect my opponent being where i dont want him to, and that is part of the complexity of the game. So if you know all about picking, luck has very little importance at early stages.
Luck will play a lot in all auto-distibution, and just noobs that likes to gamble with the coin flip to get the edge will like that.

And because of auto-distribution that players like you will create this thread, trying to demoralize a player that the hole community knows is much better than you and won't talk crap about it.

No chance for that noob to demoralize me :(

it was his wish, but it wont happen of course
he is demoralizing himself

Furious, the problem with auto distribution, is that a single sample cannot be efficient to judge a skill... in manual distribution it is not unreasonable to expect a 1900 elo player to beat a 1200 elo player 95-100% of the time... with automatic distribution, those same two players would have closer to an 80-20 ratio win rate, purely based on the fact that sometimes the better player will have a major crutch in some of the games, purely based on luck..

this being said, I believe auto-distribution is much more entertaining, as I find the distribution phase to be the least enjoyable in the entire game.. and could be seen as a better method for deciding gameplay skill and adaptability, over just calculated picks and counter-pick possibilities..

How's this for an alternative to the Manual/Auto Distribution Binary Choice:

You pick the territories you want to start in, but order preference doesn't matter. That way, noone gets first pick, and you don't know if you didn't get your spot because you were bumped out or it was just randomness.

My issue with Manuel is that most of the time, one player can figure out exactly where the other player is simply by what was available, and what they got.

Perrin, if I would play with the calculator like Heyhuehei, I would spend more time on chess, which I consider super boring. Warlight is a risk game and auto distribution, especially on big map is a very good option. I dont believe there is something like skill in this game. You can play it, or You cant, rest is just fun. I believe this game is not about being the best of the best, because its not possible here, thats why warlight is so special :)

Dunga, are You a clown in some circus?

Heyhuehei what stops You from making Your move? Its been 21 hours and You seem to be online whole the time? Calculator is not working, moon too big? Are You thinking about some good explanation why did You lose with me again? :) Just accept that when I want to win I just do it :)

Well, as people have said, 1v1 strategic games are often decided on turn 1 even if the players don't know it and I really don't think that's a good thing. The situation was even worse when the seasonal ladder had light fog. Any good 1v1 player would know who was going to win a lot of the games just by looking at the picks.

There is definitely far too much significance put on picks which are also decided by chance to some degree. Remember it's not just who gets the first pick that's decided but all your other picks can be decided on that basis.

Obviously, auto is too arbitrary as Richard said but only in it's most basic form. A refined version such as one Dev was talking about would be, I think, a better alternative to what we have now.

But this situation will be approached from different angles by everyone. Some people will want to keep the quite large element of luck that is in the 1v1 game and others will want to reduce that luck(I'm talking about more than the 16% thing here). Some people will also want to keep picks as the major divider in the game and others will want to take away that importance.

I suspect that the majority would want to keep that element of luck in the 1v1 game because it can make for some interesting(if frustrating) results and that picks should have a reduced significance but really I have no idea.

Personally, I've noticed the luck factor a lot more as I've improved at 1v1s and you can't help but notice the importance of picks. The problem with finding a solution to these problems is who are these solutions for? We have to make the template better for everyone not just for specific levels of playerss. The players at the top may not want much to change much understandably because they're at the top. They might just want to change the luck a bit to eliminate frustrating losses to less skilled players. But that may take away from the experience for the lower skilled players.

I'm not sure how we can find out what players think about these things. A big survey? It seems like a lot of work and I'm not sure it's even worth it. Is it so bad that we need to change the strategic 1v1 template? Probably not tbh.

/anticlimax

Also, on topic, good luck HHH, I hope you destroy Gaddafi :D

AND HE'S DONE IT!!! CROWD WENT CRAZY, WHOLE CITY WENT CRAZY!!!! PEOPLE ARE SALUTING TO FURIOUS LUKASZ!!! HE MADE IT!!! THE TYRRANY HAS BEEN DEFEATED!!!! THIS GAME WILL BE PASSED BY GENERATIONS OVER THE CENTURIES!!! VIVA LA FURIOUS LUKASZ!!!!

http://WarLight.net/MultiPlayer.aspx?GameID=2620679