Mulva is taking the piss :D Myhand is being rational though.

Edited 8/12/2014 23:35:46

Way to go, THE DARKNESS! My parents were in Israel a week before the war started (if that is what you would call this). They did not go as tourists but to serve those in need. They told me that in truth, both sides are the same. Gaza and Israel. The only issue is with the Hamas. They are fighting in a way so that the world will hate Israel and favor the Hamas. Israel looks bad because they are killing citizens (who have more rights in Israel then in Gaza). But what would the citizens say when they are being held at gun point to stand next to the rocket launcher by Hamas right before they are killed by a rocket. Who is guilty? Israel who fired the rocket in defense.....or the Hamas who made that person get in the way of the rocket in defense? Answer that and you have your answer of who is morally correct.

-=Ash Phantom=-

Watch this if you really want to know of what you are talking about here.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuI5GP2LJAs

I'm not taking the piss. They are occupying another country by force and eventually they will be righteously slaughtered by the Palestinians. So Israelis have four options really, 1. join Jews Against Zionism or whatever and try to make things right (improbable) 2. Move to a country that has a right to exist 3. Wait for their inevitable glorious death 4. Kill themselves.

My order of preference: 4 2 1 3. I prefer the fourth option because it is quickest and we need to fight overpopulation. And it can be expressed in two words.

da cockroach is BNP (best new poster)

( X says overpopulation is a problem. Refuses urge to begin debate only to be mocked as well as derail the topic. )

All this hate towards Jews. Incredible, really. Most of you hypocrites have never even been to the region? Israel is the only place there where everyone can live in peace, together. In fact, if Israel wasn't there, the Muslim countries would kill each other anyway. It's a culture of hate and discrimination. If you're a woman - even worse.

They don't want to live in their own countries filled with hate and death so they move to the western countries to bring their hate there. Here in Berlin, Germany, it is already overflowing and stories of husbands killing their wives begin to stack more and more.

This is such a simple conflict to understand, yet an impossible one to resolve - yes, because of the Arabs. Israel has committed so much to peace, including much land already - people tend to forget that.

Idfdoggy did you copy that right out of a propaganda book, or did you draw that out of your wicked mind?

It`s always good to complain about racism and in the very same post show off your very own racist agenda. I am glad I am finished eating, so I don`t have to puke.

Use China solution. Muslim in China no happy. China block area, use power. Nobody will talk Muslim in China. ProBlem solve.

Edited 8/21/2014 02:08:29

I am poised ready to quit apex in disgust when brisk and grona (who are israeli as well i think?) weigh in like doggy did. The antisemitism defence that doggy employed is becoming common, and at first it seemed ridiclous but now i think, yeah maybe i should become antisemetic? I have a big heart, Im sure I could find room in it to hate all jews. Except jon stewart. And I guess louis CK, and all those other cool jews. Can I kinda divide the jews im antisemetic against to one side? The default would be hate but with a small window for them to show that theyre not complicit unquestioning morons who i need to avoid.

Oh I see now. Thats how i already treat all people. So does that make me specifically antisemetic?

Racism is thinking that one race is superior to others. What do you call it when you think one group of intelligent, curious people is superior to the others? Bigotry seems like a good fit. Its archaic and overly genreal but its the best i have. I am a bigot.

^^ angry white man. world no change.

It's ok myhand. I copied it out of the truth. Look all around you? Seriously, where do you live? Probably in some bubble of yours.

You see the very recent IS group beheading an American Journalist? Where do we bad Jews do that kind of twisted shit? Yeah...didnt think so.

Maybe live in Israel for a year and then in any of the other 50 million Arab countries surrounding it and decide for yourself where life is better and more stable.

The problem with you is you think you are smart and try providing video 'evidence' of some occupation. These Arabs are refugees from all around (Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, etc.) (*edit: Just like the Jews there were refugees from mostly Europe/Russia) Don't be fooled. Nobody took anything away from anybody. Remember 1948 after the two state solution, literally all of them tried to kill us and steal our land? Too bad we are truly more intelligent and actually fight for our loved ones - unlike them - for blood.

We want love and freedom, Arabs exactly the opposite. No propaganda - it's all right there.

Edited 8/21/2014 11:21:04

Idfdoggy again your rants display only your blatant racism (Israelis want love and freedom, Arabs want hate and slavery) your superiortiy complex (we are truly more intelligent) and your lack of historical facts (nobody took anything away from anybody (haha)).

I strongly suggest you to read some history books that were not printed by the victors of the conflict, the people that won the war and needed to white wash their historical achievements.

It's ok myhand. I copied it out of the truth. Look all around you? Seriously, where do you live? Probably in some bubble of yours.

Is that so? I live in a bubble? Well then, lets look who lives in that bubble with me.

Stephen Hawking once said, the enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge.

Let`s start with

Human right organisations / NGOs.

International:

Amnesty International: http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/israel-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-2012

Peace Research Institute in Middle East (PRIME) : http://vispo.com/PRIME/truthandreconciliation.htm

Active Stills: http://www.activestills.org/about.php

Israeli:

Gisha Legal center for freedom of movement: http://gisha.org/about/about-gisha

B'Tselem: http://www.btselem.org/publications/47_year_long_temporary_occupation

Courage to refuse: http://www.seruv.org.il/english/

Refusers soldiarity network: http://www.refusersolidarity.net/about

Yesh G'vul: http://books.google.de/books?id=_XLQlsePFdQC&pg=PA29&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

Phsycians for Human Rights: http://www.phr.org.il/default.asp?PageID=145

Movement for the demilitarization of Israeli Society : http://www.newprofile.org/english/militarismen

Breaking the silence : http://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/about/organization

Birthright unplugged: http://www.birthrightunplugged.org/staff

Givat Haviva: http://www.givathaviva.org.il/english/info/MissionandProfile.htm

Kibush - Occupation magazine: http://www.kibush.co.il/

Machsom Watch : http://www.machsomwatch.org/en/hebron_kindergarten_children_are_security_threat

Rabbis for Human Rights: http://rhr.org.il/eng/about/

Yesh Din Volunteers for human rights: http://www.yesh-din.org/cat.asp?catid=2

Zochrot: http://zochrot.org/en

Israeli - Palestinian:

Israeli Palestine Center of Research and Information: http://issuu.com/ipcri/docs/ipcri_annual_report_2012

Who profits: http://whoprofits.org/content/about-who-profits

Combatants for peace: http://cfpeace.org/?page_id=2

Coalition of women for peace: http://www.coalitionofwomen.org/?page_id=322&lang=en

Ossim Shalom Social Workers for peace: http://www.ossim-shalom.org.il/document/68334,7503,5.aspx

Palestinian:

Palestine Center for Human Rights: http://www.pchrgaza.org/portal/en/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3027&Itemid=182

lets continue with internationally reknowned scholars:

Noam Chomsky: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZV3YnZnL99M (new york times called him the most important intellectual alive)

Norman Finkelstein: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiW8i88LveA

Richard Falk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znNZDFK4wBo (Appointed United Nations Special Rapporteur on "the situation of human rights in the Palestinian territories occupied since 1967" in 2008)

Jean Ziegler http://aawisraelpalestine.blogspot.de/2006/10/extracts-from-report-of-malnutrition-in.html (appointed UN Special Rapporteur on the Right to Food in 2000 until 2008)



The UN:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_UN_resolutions_concerning_Israel_and_Palestine

http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2010/01/27/rogue-state-israeli-violations-of-u-n-security-council-resolutions/

This is a very icomprehensive list of the countless human right organizations, scholars and international agencies that all come to similiar conclusions.
If this is the bubble I live in and the company I keep, I am glad i live in that bubble called reality.


The influence of AIPAC on US and other western massmedia is undeniable. Blunt lies and countless lies through omission formed a twisted image of Israel that makes people believe Israel is the victim in this conflict. This couldnt be further from the truth. It`s impossible for an unbiased person to not acknowledge that massive amount of evidence that speaks against it. I urge everyone to follow a link or two and to watch a video or two posted here and to start thinking and evaluating the conflict by yourself.

Edited 8/21/2014 14:35:55

No offence but Im not reading all of that. Which of those links would you recommend? Ideally i want something succinct and big picture, 2nd hand meta analysis.

Try the videos by Norman Finkelstein, Noam Chomsky and Richard Falk I provided.
In that order of my personal preference. That should be what you ask for allthough it can be a bit dull at times, since its in depth information and scholastic.

Edited 8/21/2014 15:07:28

I've read everything here, and as Chinese nationality I don't have cause to support or oppose either sides. From what I observe solely from this thread, I see that the world tends to support Gaza, while most Israeli support is coming from Israeli themselves. Fair enough.

I don't really see a both sided argument here. Myhandh having a very strong dislike towards Israel, X being openly hostile, and what I see from Israelis (iefdoggy and darkness) is blind patriotism, which is understandable, except its obvious that the problem comes from both sides. And theres Arun, whose comments I didn't read since reading anything by Arun lowers my IQ immediately. :)

I did some internet research, this is a fair, factual 11 points article on this issue.

http://www.vox.com/2014/7/16/5904691/hamas-israel-gaza-11-things

Here are some notable points i found interesting.

- Israel has maintained a blockade against Gaza. Controlling naval and land pathways. For a place like Gaza, with Egypt being reluctant to help, this creates a humanitarian crisis.

- The tunnels that are so widely disputed actually do carry food, granted, some of them may be used to transport terrorists and weapons too.

- Hamas is democratically elected, but doesn't recognize Israel

- Hamas isn't the only militant group in Gaza. There are jihdist groups that are more interested in violence than politics.

Here is a table of causalities between the two sides





I think its pretty obvious that the problem oringiates from both sides, but it seems pretty obvious to me that Israel is the agressor, guilty of blockading and killing innocents. While i'm sure Gaza isnt faultless on this matter too, the charts illustrates, quite clearly, Israel does it on a greater scale.

The following is my opinion:

What I think should happen?
Israel should use its superior strength to try to organize peace talks.

What will probably happen?
The Israel has the US on its side despite much of the world against them. The US is so influential that nothing much will happen.

Edited 8/21/2014 15:27:24

As with most things, this situation seems to be a result of a lot of people making independent decisions in their own best interest with no thought to what would happen big picture-wise. noone is in charge and those with some power are all beholden to something that for the most part forces their hand. I am both beholden to nothing but myself and have no power. As per usual what we need is (in game theory language) a gardener. Someone with uncontestable power to coordinate everyones choices for everyones best interest. The obvious answer is to say that the US would be that gardener but the government has already been sucked in and is part of the problem. They have massive power and are forced to use it in order to get votes from US jews. Could I be the gardener? Messiah complex aside, no, im going to go play more starcraft.

If Hamas was building up its organization outside the homes of residents did not have a lot of dead ... anyway you Modiaim advance and check if there are no residents before the bomb ... how should loosen the leash if there is a terrorist organization that wants to kill us?
Please note that the human rights organization UN Palestinian is 99% ... more than about Palestinian refugees are distributing certificates for their children despite the inherited emissions, because it has a lot of refugees.
Hamas ceasefires all shot so how will an agreement?
Muslim and Arab culture wants to kill us ... you know what it Jihad? Soon you will learn what is happening in Iraq

If a refugee was inherited I considered a refugee

UNRWA school was rockets..Then surprise you why we do not believe in these organizations? They get their money as long as there are refugees, so they have an interest in doing it..

All this hate towards Jews. Incredible, really. Most of you hypocrites

We want love and freedom, Arabs exactly the opposite.

Anti-Semitism (to jews) = bad

Anti-Semitism (to muslims) = good

(Your) Hypocrisy = right

(Other people's) Hypocrisy = wrong

You racist fucking scum. Of everyone in Israel I hope you are hit by a missile first. (Joint first with everyone in Israel)

I don't really see a both sided argument here. Myhandh having a very strong dislike towards Israel, X being openly hostile

Yeah, you also won't find any balanced opinions about adolf hitler. that's because you're either a Nazi or not, just like you're either a Zionist or not. Not everything has two sides to it.

Just because Hamas kill people doesn't make Israel right about anything. The allies killed people. Hundreds of thousands of German and Japanese civilians were murdered. That doesn't alter your views on the axis. Just because I say Israel shouldn't exist, doesn't imply any opinion about Hamas at all, nor any other country, "Arab" or otherwise.

It's not a morality competition of how many people each side killed. It's not about which group of people would hypothetically be superior at governance (based on racist extrapolations). Israel shouldn't exist. No statistic of casualties can change that. You equivocating hand-wringing centrist creep.

Can I kinda divide the jews im antisemetic against to one side?

What does any of this have to do with Judaism? We're talking about zionism. Congratulations stupid, you just capitulated to a false paradigm.