I find Darkmatter's videos to be largely preaching to the choir (if you'll pardon the expression. lol)

He makes prayer sound like god is supposed to be some genie that grants wishes or something, but I can't think of a single Christian (or someone who knows a shred of bible doctrine) who thinks that. that's not really what the bible teaches about it either.

Darkmatter refers to a local preacher he knows who claims his prayer helped him find his car keys. It depends where you live. There are lots of places in the states where you find god-is-a-genie believers.

Also, the bible preaches that if you pray to move a mountain, it will be moved. So, yeah.

defintely not inciting conflict with this topic or anything...

@Wct - A 2011 Gallup survey reports, "Three in 10 Americans interpret the Bible literally, saying it is the actual word of God. That is similar to what Gallup has measured over the last two decades, but down from the 1970s and 1980s. A 49% plurality of Americans say the Bible is the inspired word of God but that it should not be taken literally."

Biblical literalism is a small sector of the Christian movement, largely confined to evangelical or fundamentalist faiths. Most people consider the word of the Bible to be metaphorical and geared towards inspiration.

if you pray to move a mountain, it will be moved

Many would interpret this as a metaphorical statement with a religious message imbibed within it (i.e. have faith in God). That's all.

"Also, the bible preaches that if you pray to move a mountain, it will be moved. So, yeah."

That passage is referring to faith. Not prayer. Whether you interpret it as metaphorical or not, it still doesn't refer to prayer.

I guess, let me try to give you all a break down of biblical prayer and why I think that darkmatter's treatment of it doesn't really get to the heart of the matter. Please understand that I'm not trying to start an argument here or argue anyone else into becoming a Christian. You can disagree with some or all of what I have to say, but if you are going to take issue with me on something, please keep it respectful. Here we go...

Let me share with you how the Lord taught his disciples to pray:

Our Father in heaven,                       (recognizing who God is)
hallowed be your name.                      (recognizing his holiness)
Your kingdom come,                          (God has promised his kingdom will come)
your will be done,                          (God's will is already being done)
on earth, as it is in heaven.               (in both places)
Give us this day our daily bread,           (God has promised to supply our needs)
and forgive us our debts,                   (This is referring to our sin debt)
                                            (God has promised to forgive all those who trust)
as we also have forgiven our debtors.       (God has commanded us to forgive others sin)
And lead us not into temptation,            (God has promised that He won't)
but deliver us from evil.                   (Check out I Cor. 10:13)

I admit, I'm trying to interpret the scripture here on the fly, but looking back over that list, where do we see people asking for stuff? for kittens? for money? for cars?

What we see is we pray to:
Agree with him on his person and position
Agree that his promises are true
Agree that he has forgiven our sin
Agree with his commands to us regarding our treatment of others

Our position in prayer ought to be US making sure that WE agree with GOD, not getting God to do stuff for us. Everything that was asked of God in that prayer was stuff He has already promised to do.

I guess let me finish with this: I am a Christian. I do pray, but not for stuff. Most of my prayers tend to deal with my own sin and failures. I don't mind darkmatter doing these videos. I've watched a few just to see "how the other side thinks" and all. I just don't really feel like it's very applicable to actual biblical Christianity.

And on the other side of the coin, if there are Christians out there that think God is going to make them rich or give them power, I question whether that is Christianity at all. Whether that is a Christian who is just doctrinally confused or whether that person is putting the Christian label on materialism and not a Christian at all I'm just not sure.

Either way guys, that's my two cents. Take if for what it's worth.

That passage is referring to faith. Not prayer. Whether you interpret it as metaphorical or not, it still doesn't refer to prayer.

Blech, it amounts to the same thing. Here you are trying to tell us that god doesn't perform magic tricks like a genie, and when pointed out that the bible promises magic tricks, you equivocate. Whatever. Have fun moving mountains with your prayers -- oops, I mean faith. lol

Three in 10 Americans interpret the Bible literally, saying it is the actual word of God
...
Biblical literalism is a small sector of the Christian movement

Since only about 83% of the US identify as Christian (google search), 0.3 / 0.83 = 0.36.

So 36% of US Christians, by *your* reckoning (which I don't disagree with, if your poll reporting is accurate; just saying that you admit to these numbers) are biblical literalists.

And you call this a 'small sector' of the Christian movement.

Would you call the Catholics in the US a 'small sector' of the Christian movement? They make up only 22% of the population, and -- if, as you suggest, they are not literalists since they are not evangelicals or fundamentalists -- are thus (0.22 / 0.83 = 0.265) only about 26.5% of the US Christians.

So, if you are going to call the Catholics a 'small sector' of US Christians, then I will have to concede your rather banal point.

But if you just *think* about what you're saying, then you must realize that there are *more* biblical literalists in the US than there are Catholics.

Many would interpret this as a metaphorical statement with a religious message imbibed within it (i.e. have faith in God).

And many (literally almost 100 million) believe it is literally true, as you just admitted.

Edited 1/24/2016 06:17:05

you realise that not everyone that says their christian is... the census says I'm Roman Catholic, and I'm really not.

According to http://www.gallup.com/poll/15370/party-affiliation.aspx, only 26% of Americans identify as Republicans (as opposed to Republican-leaning independents).

So, I guess actual Republicans are just a 'small sector' of US politics, right?

you realise that not everyone that says their christian is

Do you realize that this would make my point *stronger*, not weaker?

E.g. Let's assume that only 90% of people who call themselves Christian on a census *actually* consider themselves Christian.

Clearly, those who believe the bible is literally true, and the word of god, actually consider themselves Christians. So that 3 in 10 remains 0.3 of the US population.

The 83% are decimated down to (0.83 x 0.9 = 0.747) 74.7% of the US population.

Thus, in the US, (0.3 / 0.747 = 0.4) about 40% of people who consider themselves Christian are biblical literalists. 40% is greater than 36%.

The more Christian-by-tradition-not-by-belief people there are, the worse it gets for actual believing Christians as being literalists.

And on the other side of the coin, if there are Christians out there that think God is going to make them rich or give them power, I question whether that is Christianity at all.

Completely irrelevant. This is about what people *believe*, and what they self-identify as, not about their metaphysical status as a 'True Christian(tm)', which even you must admit is unknowable.

Some people in the US believe prayer works like a wish from a genie. Just cuz you haven't met one personally doesn't mean they don't exist in large numbers the next state or two over from your state. This is actually an uncontroversial fact if you simply look up the poll results and admit that 30% of the population is not 'a drop in the bucket' as Jai seems to want to believe.

Heh. I just double-checked, and what do you know? It *does* talk about prayer. The following sentence says:

"Therefore I say to you, all things for which you pray and ask, believe that you have received them, and they will be granted you.

Just like a frickin' genie. Straight from Jesus' mouth, if you believe it.
Source: http://biblehub.com/mark/11-23.htm in the section called "Context".

I think atheists are too materialistic. You can be unsure or hold doubts at times, but u find being completely skeptic or worse is just awful. When i look at our universe, i see something that demands some greater being.

I'm not really creationist or evol, but i will tell you that either way the universe itself is likely an infinite cycle, at which point we look to god as our alpha and omega. And as many others say, science is not against religion, and the two have almost always complimented each other throughout history. They're almost intertwined.

The Lord is not a genie...

He does say only if you pray and ask, at which point you should reflect upon the practices of prayer. You must also consist god has never given a guitar or a diamond just because someone asked. Often than not, he might bless someone with simply a good day, or a very healthy day, or general wellbeing. I don't think any good Christian would think God goes around granting wishes. He clearly doesn't, and again he more often than not would grant something personal to you that is not material.

It's all part of a greater story we're all apart of. *

*regarding free will, it's probably like skyrim, replace spiritual stuff with God devil, make everybody the dragonborn etc...

I think atheists are too materialistic.

Simple ad hom and without justification. Whether true or false, it's irrelevant to what believers believe.

You can be unsure or hold doubts at times, but u find being completely skeptic or worse is just awful. When i look at our universe, i see something that demands some greater being.

Meaningless, arbitrary, ad hoc. Why doesn't that greater being 'demand' an even greater being, ad infinitum? Just your personal whim?

I'm not really creationist or evol, but i will tell you that either way the universe itself is likely an infinite cycle, at which point we look to god as our alpha and omega.

So, you don't really know one way or the other; therefore you make up some explanation and call it 'god'. Sounds par for the course. Also known as 'god of the gaps'.

And as many others say, science is not against religion, and the two have almost always complimented each other throughout history. They're almost intertwined.

Except for like, *most* of history, where religion on the whole has been *at best* useless for science, and in reality has usually been an impediment to science, and often the primary enemy of it.

Pick a period in history. List out all the forces pushing against science, sort that list by power and influence. Religion will almost always come out among the top entries in the list, if not the top. In some cases, you'll get political ideologies (Nazism and Stalinism famously pushed some anti-scientific views), but this is in no way a 'saving grace' to religious opposition to science. It just puts such opposition in perspective; religion(s) often opposes science just like some (other) nasty ideologies do.

He does say only if you pray and ask, at which point you should reflect upon the practices of prayer. You must also consist god has never given a guitar or a diamond just because someone asked. Often than not, he might bless someone with simply a good day, or a very healthy day, or general wellbeing. I don't think any good Christian would think God goes around granting wishes. He clearly doesn't, and again he more often than not would grant something personal to you that is not material.

It's all part of a greater story we're all apart of.

And you know all this ... how? Personal whim again?

Edited 1/24/2016 08:30:02

Not theistic, but its very sad how some atheists reject the idea of religion and yet cannot stop obsessing themselves over it.

Heh, I wouldn't be bothered with religion if people kept their religion out of other peoples' lives! Ever hear of 9/11? ISIS? Creationism? Religiously inspired climate change denialism? People voting for George W. Bush because he's more religious than the other guy (Moral Majority and all that nonsense)? Ted Cruz?

Also if religion didn't promote self-inflicted ignorance as a way of 'knowing' (i.e. faith).

Religion isn't some harmless thing, you know, eh?

Funny thing, I just googled "I prayed for a kitten" just for fun. Found these two typical stories: http://www.peeranswers.com/forums/peer-ebaiany-support-a.html, and http://caffeinated-theophanies.blogspot.ca/2013/03/the-transformative-power-of-praying-for.html

Here's another example.

Don't think people pray for 'stuff'? There's a whole thing called 'prosperity theology' (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology).

Think it's harmless? Think again:

Many prosperity churches hold seminars on financial responsibility. Kate Bowler, an academic who studies prosperity theology, has criticized such seminars, arguing that though they contain some sound advice the seminars often emphasize the purchase of expensive possessions.[11] Hanna Rosin of The Atlantic argues that prosperity theology contributed to the housing bubble that caused the late-2000s financial crisis. She maintains that home ownership was heavily emphasized in prosperity churches, based on reliance on divine financial intervention that led to unwise choices based on actual financial ability.[11]

Not a scientific critique, but something to think about before you just assume people are merely 'obsessing' over religion. (BTW, if atheists are 'obsessing' over religion, what does that say about the actual religious?) I mean, were *you* immune to the effects of the housing bubble and resulting collapse? I doubt it (it had global consequences, as the faulty mortgages were often sold off to foreign markets). Religion affects you, too, even if you're not paying attention to it.

Edited 1/24/2016 09:09:40

This stuff is basically endless. Googling "prayed for a new car", found 16 prayers at http://www.prayers-for-special-help.com/prayer-for-a-new-car.html. Here's the first one:

Prayer for a new car

by DIONISIO FRANCISCO
(ANGOLA )

saint jude , i realy need a new car and because it is so expenseve i really dont know how to get this money . so i beg you as i beleive you pwer and your are capable to help on any condition , i employer make money appear on the top of my bad soon as i arrived home . thankk you my Lord

And at https://miraclesinprayer.wordpress.com/2011/10/26/prayer-36-acquiring-a-new-vehicle/:

Prayer 36 – Acquiring a New Vehicle
Posted on October 26, 2011 by Robin Duncan

Dear God,
I am looking to acquire a new vehicle. I’m willing to open my mind and allow myself to have an amazingly smooth and beautiful experience as I go about this. I am willing to invite miracles and accept the transportation that You feel I deserve. In the past, I inadvertently decided against myself on a number of occasions and I’m willing to not do that now. Thank You, in advance, for the most beautiful, desirable, reliable, high quality, easy to acquire, dependable, affordable, timely and efficient vehicle that is possible. I trust that You will show me the greatest possible way to accomplish this, such that this vehicle acquisition is perfect for me in every way. Thank You for all the right people being involved to ensure the highest and most amazing experience of acquiring a new vehicle that I’ve ever had. Thy will be done. Amen

This Prayer is an excerpt from the Miracles in Prayer book by Robin Duncan.
This book includes 150 Prayers for Everyday Living.

I'm not going to discuss the merits of your straw man arguments since I'm not a theist and I never stated that religion was harmless.

However, if you look at the video in question...

Does the video make a connection between religion and '9/11 or ' ISIS?? Does it discuss the impact religion has on 'climate change denialism'?

No. The creator of the video obviously had no intention of that, the video was merely a parody, mocking people's religious practices - praying to a deistical figure for help.

I do hope you will agree that the act of praying is entirely harmless. Praying gives people positive obvious psychological effects, optimism, hope, self-reflection, its a form of meditation. Praying does not give people ideas to fly planes into building, nor does it inspire climate change denialism.

Now why is there a need to attack a harmless concept like that? Is that not obsession?