Cancer

Obama and Clinton are not far-left nor authoritarian (to extreme point), nor is really Sanders (when I say he's communist or the like, I'm exaggerating), while Farage is borderline fascist and Trump is one. And by your grounding, it's an insult to Jews to be German, or insult to Armenians to be Turkish. Fascism doesn't mean doing atrocities, as tribalism, capitalism, socialism, they can still do all that.

Edited 3/6/2016 19:11:46

Trump is a TRADITIONALIST????

Dont make me laugh, Xyktbpy. He's a political oppurtunist, short and simple.

Well, right now, he's traditionalist or so.

He's the Trumpcard to save America!
Clinton will just continue messing in the middle east and supporting Islam fundamentalist governments like Saudi Arabia and Turkey.

"Wants to grow the military? Yes, greatly. Wants to close borders greatly? Yes. Wants to lower public spending and make a flat % tax? Yes (but this is wonderful in my opinion). Death penalty? Yes. He meets most of the important checkpoints, the one thing he doesn't really meet is insisting on shielding Britain's culture."
So, wanting a strong military, closed borders, small government and a flat tax makes someone fascist? Please tell me that was sarcasm. If not, half of histories govts have been fascist

Farage is borderline fascist and Trump is one

Fascism must be confirmed both in action and rhetoric. The case to call Farage or Trump fascists by rhetoric alone is by itself very dubious and on thin ice. Trump's previous positions and political affiliations should invalidate him as a candidate of fascism since he's held very progressive views on abortion and gay marriage. Less than 10 years ago he was a liberal Democrat and now you're saying he's a fascist. No person with that much power changes their ideology to this degree. He's a political opportunist and con-man. That's all. He's nowhere near the likes of Mussolini, Hitler, Franco, Tojo, Ante Pavelic, Philippe Petain, Ioannis Metaxes, Miklos Horthy, or Ion Antonescu.

Neither Farage nor Trump have called for the death of non-enemy combatants and neither have shown radical genocidal tendencies. To elevate Farage and Trump to the evilness and hatred of the leaders I have mentioned does a great disservice and insult in my opinion to those who have died under Fascism's true banner.

I know what would be easier. Provide a list of quotes from Farage and Trump that you think evidences a sufficient standard to label them Fascists. That would be the best way to debate this.

Fuck, 4th page already, k, let's go
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@The Lord:

You just looked at the wrong place. A present example of authoritarian progressivism is the social justice movement. Another is Black Lives Matter. Their rhetoric might differ from the KKK, but their goal is the same: supremacy based on skin color, gender etc.

What the fuck did I just read? That's just wrong. Really.

Historical examples of authoritarian progressivism: fascism, nazi'ism, communism.

Still wrong as hell lol.
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@Eklipse {TJC}

The immigration problem I was talking about is both in law and in the people who apply the law. The law makes it easier for europeans to go to the us and get the green card, mostly because of the idea of reciprocity. Americans can go to europe easier then latinos as well.

The law gives paths to legal immigration and citizenship, but they're just too long and hard because of bureaucracy and immigration officers that really just don't give a fuck.
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@GeneralPE

But that's the point, even illegal immigration adds things to the country. Immigration isn't a bad thing and you shouldn't discriminate people. Just give immigrants opportunities and be sure they're gonna contribute even more to your country. In the UK for example, immigrants contribute with 20 billion £ more then they receive as help from the government.
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@OxTheArtist

Love that objective stance hahaha. It's funny how they think the democrats are socialists hahahaha. In France they would be a centre-right party really. And what bernie proposes is like, widespread already lol.
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@{BM}-Paugers

I'm not old or rich but I do hate socialism, fuck anyone who wants me to share the money I earn >.<

Yea, you're alienated it's different. Simple questions:
- Do you think healthcare is way too expensive?
- Do you think rich people, who become rich because of your country stability and laws should pay more then you in taxes?
- Do you think it's wrong for rich kids to have better education and thus more opportunities just because they're rich?

If you say yes to all of these, you're not a socialist. You just have common sense.
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@Eklipse {TJC}

It's not the same nationalism really. It's really more of an independence movement then anything lol. It's way different.
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@[AOE] JaiBharat909

I have to say that Trump and Farage are way closer to fascism then Hillary and Sanders. Calling hillary communist is to insult Stalin really...
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@Wohoo

He's the Trumpcard to save America!
Clinton will just continue messing in the middle east and supporting Islam fundamentalist governments like Saudi Arabia and Turkey.

I happen to believe Trump will just invade the Middle East at the first muslim who insults him under his presidency.
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About the thread derailing, I think it's mostly because no one here has a membership. Love the irony, people defend the idea of not having Socialist governments, defend rich people and their privileges, but really I'm the one who actually spent money to the site. Oh, and if Fizzer gives members more privileges, I know who's gonna be the first to be complaining about it.

#Hypocrisy

Just ye meme so the thread goes back to anti-trump memes.

"In the UK for example, immigrants contribute with 20 billion £ more then they receive as help from the government."
1). I trust you not to lie, but source pls. 2). Does it take crime into account? I would rather live in a poorer country where you can sleep well at night then South Africa, where even if you have 2000 acres and a private army you fear for your life.

"I happen to believe Trump will just invade the Middle East at the first muslim who insults him under his presidency."
He won't. Congress and the public wouldn't let him even if he wants to, which I doubt he will.

"You just looked at the wrong place. A present example of authoritarian progressivism is the social justice movement. Another is Black Lives Matter. Their rhetoric might differ from the KKK, but their goal is the same: supremacy based on skin color, gender etc."
Tell me what about it is wrong? Look at people shouting down Milo Yiannopolous at Rutgers and elsewhere. Clear example of authoritarian progressivism right there.

"It's funny how they think the democrats are socialists hahahaha."
Did I miss something? Is Bernie not a Democrat? Or is he just lying about being a socialist?

"It's not the same nationalism really. It's really more of an independence movement then anything lol. It's way different."
How is it not nationalist? You simply refuse to see the facts before your eyes. I agree Trump is nationalist, I just don't have a problem with nationalism in and of itself.

I have to say that Trump and Farage are way closer to fascism then Hillary and Sanders. Calling hillary communist is to insult Stalin really...

Now wait a second. To say Trump and Farage are "closer" to fascism is completely and utterly different from saying they "are" fascists, and to try to claim otherwise is disingenuous. Again I'm not saying Hillary and Bernie are communists, because that would be an irresponsible and hyperbolic statement. But by your argument I can claim that Hillary and Bernie are "closer" to communism than are Trump and Farage which is an equally dangerous statement considering the millions slaughtered by Mao and Stalin in the name of communism.

He won't. Congress and the public wouldn't let him even if he wants to, which I doubt he will.

That was a joke of course ^^.

Black lives matter isn't an authoritarian progressive movement. Some people might do stupid things related to it, but it's not a movement defending black hegemony.

Democrats aren't socialists. Bernie isn't really a democrat, he's an independent who couldn't win running out of a party, close to trump on this aspect really. Trump isn't a republican either.

Nationalism isn't all bad. Defending your culture and to be proud of your country isn't a thing I would condemn. But to defend the idea of kicking muslims out of the country for safety, defending more strengh when dealing with the chinese and say that america should be made great again, that's the worst kind of nationalism. It's national populism for real.


That article you asked for:
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/nov/05/eu-migrants-uk-gains-20bn-ucl-study

I don't remind where I read, but on the whole world, in 20 nations that received huge ammount of refugees, 19 had positive consequences in their economies and only one had negative consequences. That one being lebanon, if I remind, where a quarter of the population is made of refugees.

@[AOE] JaiBharat909

What's communism for you?

Yet it's perfectly fine for Scots and other regions with a separatist movement to be nationalistic...

Uh.. actually in Belgium this is the opposite. Belgian nationalists here are seen as a positive thing by media while Flemmish nationalists are seen as a negative dangerous thing, extreme far right, conservative and idiotic.
I can recall Math Wolf once saying that Flemmish nationalist were ill—informed. Looks like people actually believe anything what media wants you to portray...

"a social, political, and economic ideology and movement whose ultimate goal is the establishment of the communist society, which is a socioeconomic order structured upon the common ownership of the means of production and the absence of social classes, money, and the state."

^That's a concise if simplistic overarching definition of what would constitute communism. Clinton and Sanders are closer to communism than Trump or Farage. Farage and Trump are closer to fascism than Clinton or Sanders. However, neither Trump, Farage, Clinton, or Sanders is a fasicst or communist. Do you agree with that?

@[AOE] JaiBharat909

Your definition of communism is really closer to socialism, but it's one of the simplest good definitions I received until now.

If I had to say in a simple way, there's my definition of both:
- Socialism is when the government, in name of the people with the dictatorship of the proletariat, control all means of production with the ultimate goal of reaching communism.
- Communism is the evolved status of socialism, where there's no need for government anymore (it's a kind of anarchism), and the workers control directly the means of production.

Clinton and Sanders are closer to communism than Trump or Farage. Farage and Trump are closer to fascism than Clinton or Sanders.

That's obvious. ^^


And yea, none of them are fascists or communists. I wouldn't even say Sanders is socialist for real. However I have to say Trump and Farage are far-right retards. It's funny how the media and republicans call them communists, but I guess it's too hard to learn the definition of communism for them. It's easier to keep shouting they are communists and wait the alienated masses to believe it.

However I have to say Trump and Farage are far-right retards. It's funny how the media and republicans call them communists, but I guess it's too hard to learn the definition of communism for them. It's easier to keep shouting they are communists and wait the alienated masses to believe it.

To be fair I could say the exact same thing in reverse.

"However I have to say Clinton and Sanders are far-left retards. It's funny how the media and democrats call them fascists, but I guess it's too hard to learn the definition of fascism for them. it's easier to keep shouting they are fascists and wait for the alienated masses to believe it."

The extremely wide leeway we give to people to use ideological labels such as fascism or communism creates a two way problem in our divided political discourse.

yea, I guess you have a point there ^^. But it's hard to say Hillary is far-left. Sanders I can even get, but Hillary it's pushing it a bit huh...

True...I only say Hillary is far-left because more and more she's starting to sound like Bernie and Warren.

Neh, it's a political move. She is forced to do so because of bernie, I bet we'll see her shifting to the center if she gets the nomination.