Play
Multi-Player
Coins
Community
Settings
Help
Community   Maps   Forum   Mail   Ladders   Clans   Recent Games
Sign In | Sign Up
<< Back to Off-topic Forum   

Posts 1 - 30 of 44   1  2  Next >>   
Legality Thread: Bureaucracy Vs Democracy (ROI/EU): 9/1/2016 06:05:39


[WL] Colonel Harthacanute
Level 50
Report
Dear Crabs,

There's this story being run round about a tax bill set by the EU on Apple. Apple is a country which legally holds a monopoly in the Republic of Ireland due to a deal which gave certain concessions and dates to prior to Ireland's ascension to the EU.

Due to EU tax law, companies such as Apple have to pay bucket-loads of wonga for simply being American.

Apple is pissed off because they made loads of jobs in Ireland, and they're gonna move to somewhere that isn't Ireland such as the UK because the UK won't be in the EU anymore and won't have to listen to EU [WORD REDACTED BECAUSE FIZZER LOVES GAYS] who have nothing better to do than piss people off because they're morbidly obese middle-aged bureaucrats from irrelevant non-states such as Belgium and hate Russia because their second cousins' best friend's maid once took a taxi from her hotel to a nightclub in Bulgaria and the Russian taxi-driver overcharged her by $2.

And the Irish government is pissed off because they won't win the next election if loads of people go unemployed on their watch and they can't get away with the "Blame-the-British Card" anymore.

And the EU is basically killing themselves because when people realise that quiting the EU will attract big businesses such as Apple, they'll want to quit too and the EU will basically be Germany and a few of Germany's satellites pretending to be the future of the "ever-smaller" world.

So, my point is: Is Bureaucracy getting in the way of the will of the people, and can this problem be solved? If not, shouldn't we just get on with it and forget about the "globalised future" and focus instead on freedom and justice?

Thanks,
Colonel, The Most Popular Bigot On WarLight 2014-15
Legality Thread: Bureaucracy Vs Democracy (ROI/EU): 9/1/2016 06:17:20


[TNW] Commander Vimes
Level 30
Report
Colonel, The Most Popular Bigot On WarLight 2014-15

That's debatable. Try "Colonel, Your friendly local bigot." This is at least a matter of opinion and as such can not be proven right or wrong.
Legality Thread: Bureaucracy Vs Democracy (ROI/EU): 9/1/2016 06:19:32


[TNW] Commander Vimes
Level 30
Report
Try looking for the complaint forms, in a locked filing cabinet inside a disused lavatory with a sign on it saying "Beware of the leopard," inside a basement with no lights or stairs.
Legality Thread: Bureaucracy Vs Democracy (ROI/EU): 9/1/2016 07:54:05


Belgian Gentleman
Level 55
Report
how dare you, you belgaphobic!
Legality Thread: Bureaucracy Vs Democracy (ROI/EU): 9/1/2016 08:30:03


[WL] Colonel Harthacanute
Level 50
Report
I'm not a Belgiaphobe. I believe in the irrelevance of Belgium. It is a necessary part of the global makeup.
Legality Thread: Bureaucracy Vs Democracy (ROI/EU): 9/2/2016 05:35:53


Genghis 
Level 52
Report
I am a simple man. I see post by Cardwell, i downvote.
Legality Thread: Bureaucracy Vs Democracy (ROI/EU): 9/2/2016 06:09:32


TeamGuns 
Level 58
Report
Apple doesn't create jobs in Ireland, the jobs are in the us, they just pay their taxes in Ireland. That's called tax-dodging and in fact hurt the US.

Thing is, Ireland doesn't apply the Irish national tax level to apple, and instead offer them a way lower tax level than normal companies apply to. Which is insane and unfair; local irish companies will pay way more than apple as a %. UE ruled it was against the law and forced apple to pay the normal bracket of taxes.

None of this is absurd to me, fighting tax-dodging is a good thing. Plus, if apple decides to leave, you're not going to lose jobs, since these jobs never came to Ireland in the first place.
Legality Thread: Bureaucracy Vs Democracy (ROI/EU): 9/2/2016 12:18:08


Major General Smedley Butler
Level 49
Report
Tax dodgers are heroes; go anyone who wants to evade robbery, the US government deserves not a cent of anyone's money. It won't go to roads, it'll go to bombers and tanks, so you aren't hurting society; you're aiding it.
Legality Thread: Bureaucracy Vs Democracy (ROI/EU): 9/2/2016 15:50:22


Imperator
Level 53
Report
It won't go to roads, it'll go to bombers and tanks, so you aren't hurting society; you're aiding it.


Actually, out of the whole $3.7 trillion in taxes that the government collects annually, only 16% of it or around $580 billion goes to the military (1).

And honestly, even claiming this figure as being spent on "bombers and tanks" is misleading. The overwhelming majority of this goes to paying military staff, maintaining bases, and building housing for military families (2). Only the bits in the "Procurement", and "Research, Development, Testing & Evaluation" sections can really be classified as being spent on "bombers and tanks".

Overall, those two sections of the military budget come out to around $220 billion, or around 6% of the overall annual budget.

Since the average income in the US is $51,000, this works out to around $5,610 paid in taxes per year, of which $689 will go to "bombers and tanks". Even if you're not okay with paying those $689 for weapons well guess what, it's still a douchebag thing to refuse to pay the other 95% of your taxes that go to other stuff.


Links:

1. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/57/U.S._Federal_Spending.png
2. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/91/USA_2010_Military_Budget_Spending.jpg

Edited 9/2/2016 15:52:38
Legality Thread: Bureaucracy Vs Democracy (ROI/EU): 9/2/2016 16:11:41


[WL] Colonel Harthacanute
Level 50
Report
This is not about whether or not the special tax treatment of Apple by the Irish government is morally justifiable. It is about whether the Irish think so. And they obviously think that it is.

So, do we allow an unelected bureaucracy overall the popular elected government of a supposedly independent nation-state?

If you're an SJW and you think that everyone should get their just-desserts in this world regardless of the consequences, then of course you'd love to overrule democracy. But the people won't tolerate it. The fact is that people love liberty. They love freedom. And they hate people telling them what to do.
Legality Thread: Bureaucracy Vs Democracy (ROI/EU): 9/2/2016 16:17:21


Major General Smedley Butler
Level 49
Report
Actually, out of the whole $3.7 trillion in taxes that the government collects annually, only 16% of it or around $580 billion goes to the military (1).

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN10U1IG

Since the average income in the US is $51,000, this works out to around $5,610 paid in taxes per year, of which $689 will go to "bombers and tanks". Even if you're not okay with paying those $689 for weapons well guess what, it's still a douchebag thing to refuse to pay the other 95% of your taxes that go to other stuff.

Taxation. Is. Theft.

Edited 9/2/2016 16:19:03
Legality Thread: Bureaucracy Vs Democracy (ROI/EU): 9/2/2016 16:23:22


[WL] Colonel Harthacanute
Level 50
Report
Of course democracy isn't based on justice. But that doesn't mean that democracy can't serve a just purpose.

Would you say that overruling a democratically elected government is more justifiable than allowing the government to have authority over its own citizens?

Edited 9/2/2016 16:23:35
Legality Thread: Bureaucracy Vs Democracy (ROI/EU): 9/2/2016 16:40:59


[WL] Colonel Harthacanute
Level 50
Report
I do not engage in the political processes of the state I live in.

However, I do not agree with your presumption that democracy equals evil. Democracy can be a means by which a people are released from oppression. Democracy can be used for good.

The Islamic Republic of Pakistan is a democratic state. The State of Qatar is a democratic state. Both are Islamic countries. Democracy has not brought them stability and security in their respective societies, however you cannot reject them, their leaders or the way they choose to run their countries due to it.

Democracy was not chosen by the majority of the world. It was forced upon them.
Legality Thread: Bureaucracy Vs Democracy (ROI/EU): 9/2/2016 16:43:10


Imperator
Level 53
Report
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN10U1IG


I'm not sure if this is a credible source, but I'm serious, I read like 5 sentences and the article said something like "The military spent $6.5 trillion extra in 2015", and I literally lol'd, like where the hell are they getting 30% of the US GDP from?

Taxation. Is. Theft.


Well no, taxation is taxation, it's the price you have to pay for living in a country and using the services it provides for you. I do agree that there should be less taxes, but honestly it's pretty entitled position to claim that you should get the protection and services that a government offers you and not have to pay for it. That just isn't how economics work tbh.

Edited 9/2/2016 16:45:23
Legality Thread: Bureaucracy Vs Democracy (ROI/EU): 9/2/2016 16:46:06


Major General Smedley Butler
Level 49
Report
taxation is taxation

Doesn't change that it's theft

it's the price you have to pay for living in a country and using the services it provides for you.

It's the money stolen from you by the feudal lords that occupy the land you're on. They monopolize services to justify their grand thievery.

but honestly it's pretty entitled position to claim that you should get the protection and services that a government offers you and not have to pay for it

Privatize it

Edited 9/2/2016 16:46:54
Legality Thread: Bureaucracy Vs Democracy (ROI/EU): 9/2/2016 16:46:41


[WL] Colonel Harthacanute
Level 50
Report
Well no, taxation is taxation, it's the price you have to pay for living in a country and using the services it provides for you. I do agree that there should be less taxes, but honestly it's pretty entitled position to claim that you should get the protection and services that a government offers you for free.


Rulership is a privilege. It's a trust. If you mismanage your authority, you're answerable firstly to the people you oppress, then to God.
Legality Thread: Bureaucracy Vs Democracy (ROI/EU): 9/2/2016 16:55:28


TeamGuns 
Level 58
Report
The anti-dodging tax directive of the UE has been voted by the EU parlement, which is elected by the people just like irish representatives are. Also, it's not because my government is elected that I must agree with it giving tax dodges to profitable corporations, I suspect the irish feel the same as me about it.

Unless there's an irish referendum on wether to give Apple tax benefits and not other companies, the decision to give them these tax benefits are as democratic as the one taking them out, as in both cases elected representatives passed the bill. And before you say that the EU shouldnt take decisions for the irish, they also voted to join it.

Edited 9/2/2016 16:56:36
Legality Thread: Bureaucracy Vs Democracy (ROI/EU): 9/2/2016 17:03:50


Imperator
Level 53
Report
It's the money stolen from you by the feudal lords that occupy the land you're on. They monopolize services to justify their grand thievery.


Nobodies stealing anything from you, if you don't like paying taxes go to somalia or iraq or somewhere else where you won't be forced to pay. If you want to live on someones land and use it, you have to follow their rules, just like if you act like an ass in a bar you get thrown out.

If the rule is you have to pay 11% of your money for the privilege of being allowed to use their land then that's the rule, and if you find this too oppressive you can go to a place with different rules. However, you obviously don't consider it to be too oppressive, since last I checked you weren't playing from somalia.

Privatize it


Privatizing everything is a pretty bad idea, the first one that comes to mind being the fire department. If there is a private fire service, at best there is competition for their resources in a commercial setting, and at worst there is room for corruption since they might like, you know, go around setting people's houses on fire to then charge to put out.
Legality Thread: Bureaucracy Vs Democracy (ROI/EU): 9/2/2016 17:45:44


Major General Smedley Butler
Level 49
Report
Nobodies stealing anything from you, if you don't like paying taxes go to somalia or iraq or somewhere else where you won't be forced to pay

"I'm not stealing from you, you don't like it, leave your home." - Bandit

If you want to live on someones land

The government doesn't own this land, they have no moral claim to it, and taxes are not voluntary.

If the rule is you have to pay 11% of your money for the privilege of being allowed to use their land then that's the rule, and if you find this too oppressive you can go to a place with different rules. However, you obviously don't consider it to be too oppressive, since last I checked you weren't playing from somalia.

We can change the rules to something more sensible, so no, your "it's da rulz"! argument is null.

Privatizing everything is a pretty bad idea, the first one that comes to mind being the fire department. If there is a private fire service, at best there is competition for their resources in a commercial setting, and at worst there is room for corruption since they might like, you know, go around setting people's houses on fire to then charge to put out.

If a fire department is starting fires to drum up service, hire another fire department.
Legality Thread: Bureaucracy Vs Democracy (ROI/EU): 9/2/2016 18:00:26


[WL] Colonel Harthacanute
Level 50
Report
The government doesn't own this land, they have no moral claim to it, and taxes are not voluntary.


It depends which country you live in. In Britain (and, I believe, in other constituent countries of the Commonwealth Realm) the Crown actually owns most of the land. You can only hold land by an indefinite lease which the reigning monarch may legally cancel at any time.

If a fire department is starting fires to drum up service, hire another fire department.


Completely agree on this one. :)
Legality Thread: Bureaucracy Vs Democracy (ROI/EU): 9/2/2016 18:05:21


Paugers
Level 41
Report
If a fire department is starting fires to drum up service, hire another fire department.

You're funny

Edited 9/2/2016 18:05:39
Legality Thread: Bureaucracy Vs Democracy (ROI/EU): 9/2/2016 18:08:06


Imperator
Level 53
Report
"I'm not stealing from you, you don't like it, leave your home." - Bandit


Except it's not your home, you are literally living on the land of a sovereign nation. If you think you can live on the land of another entity without following their rules then you're the bandit, not the entity who is requesting that you follow their rules.

The government doesn't own this land, they have no moral claim to it, and taxes are not voluntary.


The government owns the land because they say so and people agree with them, there's no moral claim necessary. If you'd like to dispute their ownership then you're welcome to do so, but it probably won't work out too well for you given the billions of people who will tell you that you're full of crap.

We can change the rules to something more sensible, so no, your "it's da rulz"! argument is null.


Sure we can, but it hasn't been done yet. Until the rules are changed, these are the ones we're stuck with.

If a fire department is starting fires to drum up service, hire another fire department.


What if one fire department creates a monopoly on fire department services?
Legality Thread: Bureaucracy Vs Democracy (ROI/EU): 9/2/2016 18:18:28


Paugers
Level 41
Report
^
Monopolies don't exist.
Legality Thread: Bureaucracy Vs Democracy (ROI/EU): 9/2/2016 18:22:55


Жұқтыру
Level 55
Report
Apple doesn't create jobs in Ireland, the jobs are in the us, they just pay their taxes in Ireland. That's called tax-dodging and in fact hurt the US.


Are you sure? I think there are countries with lower taxes than that, like some Caribbean countries.

Tax dodgers are heroes; go anyone who wants to evade robbery


or maybe they just go to robbery to another country? and maybe they're not heros, since they're just leaving others without knack to hide money, with less money to pay more. Also, it's not robbery, it's I think in English "extortion".

also is it robbery or extortion to take something away from you that was not guaranteed in the first stead and was never yours?

If a fire department is starting fires to drum up service, hire another fire department.


Why would you care? if they promise not to send your home on fire, it's incent to hire those that do. Fully privatising some things can be really really awful, like health-related stuff. Folk would be misled by advertising (happens today in countries without regulation on it), and untruths. For example, heroin marketed under name "Let's go" and marketed as an antidepressant. Or getting surgeries that you just don't need at all, or even marketing placebos as actual medicines. This would be a comeback to dark times.
Legality Thread: Bureaucracy Vs Democracy (ROI/EU): 9/2/2016 18:32:58


[WL] Colonel Harthacanute
Level 50
Report
Are you sure? I think there are countries with lower taxes than that, like some Caribbean countries.


But Ireland is in the EU, and open trade with EU countries means if you got a deal there, you got it easy in the EU.

However, it is my opinion that if the EU is to succeed, it must let Capitalism do its thing. Monopolies are created by demand, not government regulation.
Legality Thread: Bureaucracy Vs Democracy (ROI/EU): 9/2/2016 18:38:43


Imperator
Level 53
Report
^
Monopolies don't exist.


No they don't because we have nice anti-trust laws established to destroy monopolies. I don't get the impression that MGSB is in favor of these though.
Legality Thread: Bureaucracy Vs Democracy (ROI/EU): 9/2/2016 18:50:39


Belgian Gentleman
Level 55
Report
Idaho doesn't exist
Legality Thread: Bureaucracy Vs Democracy (ROI/EU): 9/2/2016 19:26:06


Major General Smedley Butler
Level 49
Report
If a fire department is starting fires to drum up service, hire another fire department.

You're funny

So you have no choice in the market because reasons?

Except it's not your home

Yes it is; I'm not giving it up to some damned feudal lord in Washington

If you think you can live on the land of another entity without following their rules then you're the bandit, not the entity who is requesting that you follow their rules.

If you think you can use guns to steal money from everyone in some arbitrary plot of land, you're an illegitimate tyrant who should be hung.

The government owns the land because they say so and people agree with them, there's no moral claim necessary. If you'd like to dispute their ownership then you're welcome to do so, but it probably won't work out too well for you given the billions of people who will tell you that you're full of crap.

The government robbed everything it owns from the folk it and it's like claiming that mafias should go uncontested because they say they own the land.

What if one fire department creates a monopoly on fire department services?

https://mises.org/library/myth-natural-monopoly

https://mises.org/library/fear-monopoly

Monopolies don't exist.

They do; they're called states

No they don't because we have nice anti-trust laws established to destroy monopolies. I don't get the impression that MGSB is in favor of these though.

https://mises.org/library/truth-about-sherman
Legality Thread: Bureaucracy Vs Democracy (ROI/EU): 9/2/2016 19:53:47


TeamGuns 
Level 58
Report
Monopolies not always are created by the market, although influent, the market doesnt always create a monopoly. If there's a limited supply of diamonds and one company owns all the mines, I would love to see how the market can find a competitor.

Anti-trust laws are very needed to prevent such things that already happen in some degrees to become the rule. Plus non-private institutions are also needed to tell the truth when companies and the media have no interest in doing so.

Tobacco is a good example, imagine that today an ad told you that tobacco was good for health. You'd think it's absurd; but yet if a company like Philip Morris 70 years ago did an ad like that, you could think it's true. Then imagine CNN, FoxNews, MSNBC and idk which other crappy very watched News cable there is in the us all taked 5 million dollars each month not to talk about tobacco being bad for health. Soon you could have tons of people smoking tobacco cause it's good for health and in your dream ancap world most people wouldn't find about it.

Now that's just an example, it could be applied to tons of fields and companies. In a capitalist world companies need to do profit: media, oil, big pharma, tobacco, weapon, and other companies all work for profit and will never put their customers before their income. In such a world you need one institution that works (even if badly) for the people.

You can't have a good capitalist economy if all consumers are dumb and uninformed about the services/products they're acquiring.
Legality Thread: Bureaucracy Vs Democracy (ROI/EU): 9/2/2016 19:54:33

The Supreme Mugwump
Level 54
Report
"Monopolies don't exist."

Are you serious?


-trollmode on-

"If you think you can use guns to steal money from everyone in some arbitrary plot of land, you're an illegitimate tyrant who should be hung."

Civilised countries outlawed death penalty some time ago. Even many barbaric countries did this. For very good reasons.

-trollmode off-

Edited 9/2/2016 20:00:31
Posts 1 - 30 of 44   1  2  Next >>   

Contact | About WarLight | Play Risk Online | Multiplayer Strategy Game | Challenge Friends, Win Money | Skill Game | Terms of Service