+1 yuri

why i can't say sze is the best: a long-term reason and two recent situations.

I've played sze over 100 times. 100+ games is statistically meaningful. i won 60-70% against him. won 70% with him as a teammate. if he is the best the former % would be lower and the latter % would be higher. i have winning records against him in 1v1s, 2v2s and 3v3s. if he is the best he'd have a better record than me at something.

his current situation isn't enviable: play fast to get a rank, lose to a guy rated 1400 but the guy surrendered before sze did, cling to 1st with slow play while timinator should really be in 1st. if a guy rated 1400 didn't surrender and won like he was going to, sze's ladder rating would be in the mid 2000s and he wouldn't have cracked 1st place yet. while languishing in 3rd place, would sze be the thoughtless choice for best? i bet timinator would get some votes here if sze really lost to bowdown like he deserved, especially since tim beat sze on the ladder.

in our 20 2v2 vs unknown/bb the game was won on picks. all sze had to do was stay alive in the middle with a big stack to buy time. he said so himself in two paragraphs of team chat. I assumed he'd make the right moves based on the chat and was too busy with life to check his moves. i made my moves and checked the results of the turn: sze is cleared from the center and his only armies are in denmark now. why? all he had to do was maintain a presence in the middle with 1 big stack. and since he was threatening the heart of the enemies' bonuses he could only afford 1 move. what did he do? try to make multiple cute moves. a simple 7 turn win gets drawn out. he eventually gets eliminated. why didn't he make the obvious move? lack of situational experience? i've seen or done that dozens of times. i was really surprised that he said what needed to be done to win easily (stay alive in the middle) but he didn't make a move to ensure it would happen.

sze could win the best active player award if: (1) he reigns in 1st on the 2v2 ladder with gnuff, (b) he wins the 20 2v2 and 3v3 tournaments that I am unable to play and he is playing with two accounts (he has a good head start with two easy wins when I was with him), (c) he joins the seasonal ladder and nearly wins or wins with settings he probably isn't at his best (the fighting those settings require isn't a strength of sze, see his 1v1 vs red). if red is playing the seasonal ladder i'd expect him to do better than sze.

sze as best overall player? not yet. sze as best 1v1 ME player? only if you ignore his loss to bowdown and how he lost to red when the game was his.

And there it is... Gui's inevitable bashing of the current ladder #1 and his argument as to why they are wholly undeserving of their ranking and position. Surprised it took this long to come to be honest. Has there been a 'valid' ladder leader since he last held that position? Somehow I doubt it...

I would throw a vote out for Timinator. He's strong on almost every front that I have seen him play.

Also, unknownsoldier is a great player. Maybe not the best, but he can sure hold his own.

Obviously myhandisonfire has been thrown around and I also feel like is a really top tier player.

My last one to throw in the ring for right now would be dreuj. I just can not beat this guy. Yes, I know, before you destroy me saying I'm terrible or what not and that's why I can't win, I truly believe this guy is great. All around, every map I've played against him, every different template, and the game I've played with him lead me to believe this. He also win tournaments like a boss. Out of 25 games I've played with him I've only won 1 of them. You would think even a scrub would get luckier than that, but he just plays great every time.

Now I'm not all analytical and whatnot about who I picked, just those that have really made an impression (literally) when they have pounded the crap out of me in games.

Cheers.

Explain where I bashed? Everything i said about the past is true. maybe you didn't get get the memo: the thread is called "provocative thread: who is the best player?" it is not called "provocative thread: who has more forum posts than games played and excels at mean-spirited cheap shots?"

i agree with noob school

I thought it was a joke thread, but it seems it is not. Oh well...

a) Yes, if you count all the games you did win more than me, but most of those games were played long ago and I don't deny you were a better player than me for a long while (1st game was played around april 2 years ago). If you count recent games on all of your accounts you'll see you did not perform as well.

b) Seems you still do not understand my reasoning from our game against bb/unknown. I said that me remaining in center was enough, but I also said later I assumed bb would deploy in ireland, based upon the fact that I judged not doing that would result in an immediate loss for them, which proved to be a right assumption on my part since we won worst case scenario. I countered another agressive line of theirs and as I said before, I could have played it safer, I did not have to. Since it made the game more complicated I apologised, still I'd use both strategies in that position from time to time.

c) My 1vs1 ladder rank is irrelevant. Period. 2vs2 ladder rank, even more irrelevant... Short note: I am not actually playing slowly, tagg is on vacation, MathWolf is the slowest player on this site. And I am not only the one with free wins granted by boots...

d) I'll play in the seasonal ladder once 20 ends and the settings are fun

e) Long ago I asked you to play a best of 7 europe 3vs3 vs me. You were busy and it was understandable so we did not play it, in retrospect you'd probably win 9-10 months ago, now I am confident you wouldn't. You are probably as confident you would. Neither of us will be satisfied since we're both too lazy and occupied to waste time for a long challenge like that. You are quite quick to judge me despite having played relatively few games since first season of 20 ended. Play as much as myhand with me and then I'll know that I can trust your judgment.

Since the purpose of this thread was to know the best player, I'll make my top list without me (though most people should know where i'd put myself):

Subjective top player list:

1) myhandisonfire - played > 600 games with him and every time I am confident he sees everything what I see, sometimes from a different perspective

2) Gui - solid picking, solid strategy, great understanding of teamplay, very tough to beat when focused, not many weak sides

3) fatih sultan mehmed - a pity he quit, I'd like to get a rematch especially in 1vs1 games. I'd consider putting him #2 but I have not played with him nor have I watched his games that much. Just an extremely solid player.

4,5) Heyheuhei/Salah-ad-Din - Both great players with very interesting styles, when given the opportunity they will play very agressively, very often dominating the whole map. I ranked them a tiny bit below places 2,3 since I noticed some general positional or tactical flaws in some situations. In any case with those 2 I played most aside from myhand and I know those 2 you want to have on your team.

6,7) Ribena/unknownsoldier - Just because :) From both I received an ocasional beating, one rarely plays 1vs1 games, the other rarely plays 3vs3 games, possibly the only reason why 6,7 and not 4,5.

Honorable mentions: Monsenhor Chacina (he'd be high, but left a long time ago) zibik, Yoshi, dunga, Timinator, SpinyPsy

Sze, Monsenhor Chacina was Myriad, am I correct? I was going to put him on this list, but he has been inactive nearly (if not more than) a year now. I still have him on my invite list in hopes one day he will come back. Played with him a ton in the short time I knew him. Very solid player, could definitely put me in my place every game, and great to talk to also.

Monsenhor vel Myriad vel ubiquitus vel Chump vel Choose a Finger

i think jsa only made this thread to seek our acknowledgement that he is the best player on this site. :/

So, yeah, Jsa, you're the best player on this site! (If i say anything else, he'll probably go into another rant.)

So Sze you think, on balance, that you're better than Gui? Aswell as everybody else?

Are you going to prove it?

Am I the only player on Warlight that thinks that there is no one individual best player? Different people are good at different maps and anyone who knows what they're doing can beat any other person on any given day. Id say as far as Warlight goes all the top players are going to have different chances against other top players based of relative styles of play and the map. Sze may lose to Red but not Zibik while Zibik beats Red. Does that make Zibik better than Sze or red? Or red better than Sze,or Sze better than either? Nope not really.

CPU, the argument is about overall best, all things considered (even though some people -- including Sze -- consider only some things, some maps, some game modes).

Sze, a new tagline for you: "I believe I am right, which makes me right, at least to myself." http://toughlovetalk.com/is-it-really-a-lie-%e2%80%93-seinfeld-self-help/

You are like Pang Jun: so confident, always right, yet never the best, despite your greatest efforts. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pang_Juan

In all honesty, your inflexibility is why you will never be the best. To be the best, you need to be flexible like water. You are hard like stone. Water > stone.

Actually if you look at ladder ratings I am the best now ;).

And joking aside, I have a simillar opinion to thegman. I don't think there is a best player at all. I think there is a group of best players, but there is no way to single out the one that is THE best.

Congrats on beating timi, I will watch the game now, but you're still 18points or so behind swenny (at least until it updates). Also, get back in the ladder!

I am behind sze in 1 v 1, but ahead (and by more) in 2 v 2. So if you combine both scores I'm in front. Also me and Nord beat Sze and Gnuff in 2 v 2 (didn't play 1v1), that's the reason for my comment. As for getting back on the ladder it's hard for me to care about those games as I don't have anything else to achive (been no 1 already) and I don't really like 1v1 strat settings, played too many games on it, so it is kinda boring for me, thus I won't do very good on it. Ill get back on the ladder at some point propobly, when Ill have a low game count.

Oh, I see, I am blinkered to anything not strat 1v1 as per usual. Well done on being the best warlight player ever!

Will you be going for a highest ever score when you come back? I think that would be fun. I hope that it becomes a common thing, all the top players keeping their game count low and then making a push for the highest score every 3 months. We can all play "who can abuse the system hardest" together =D

I don't really know what I will be going for honestly :). I might come back sooner then in 3 months, as I alweys had (getting on and off erraticaly).

As for the game with Timi - not much to watch really. The decisive factor was picks (as usuall), though an intresting thing is we both had the same picks, just in diffrent order, and then he all but sealed his fate by not playing order delay on turn 6. not much more to tell about that game.

Nice try Artham. But the ladders are meaningless (according to Sze the Great). If you are in the same clan as Sze and he doesn't mention you on his list of the best players, how can the rest of us consider you a top player? Sze the Great knows best. You must be just another wanna-be.

I actually agree with you Huck. Personally I would put myself in top20 active players here. Im definetly not the best overall player for a two main reasons:

1. I don't play many maps and settings and I don't know how to play them (I play ENC, strat 1v1, Imperium Romanum, Ancient China and that's pretty much it)
2. I don't care enough about being the best to be the best - in order to reach the top you need to commit a lot of time to practice. I have less then 1,5k games compleated over 1,5 years. This is a game for me and not much more then that. I am by nature very competative (as any good player has to be in my opinion), but there's simply not enough motivation for me to commit enough time and thought to this game.

I think the ladders aren't meaningless. They shouldn't be interpreted literally (i.e. whoever is first on the ladder is best at the moment), but they do have some baring on who is in the top players pool. Dominating all ladders over a given period of time would in my opinion indicate that a player is the best in that give period of time.

As for Sze's list... it consist mostly of semi-active players and as I see it it's more sentimental and based on history with those players then actuall skill lvl. That's just my opinion though.