Жұқтыру is very knowledgeable. If he had more confidence, he wouldn't bother replying on this thread.



Grammar Nazi case : stopped.





This thread must be derailed.



Also, Matteo Ricci is a great man. A good example of religious tolerance. What is the difference between religion and philosophy ? The line is not always clear...

Жұқтыру is very knowledgeable. If he had more confidence, he wouldn't bother replying on this thread.

I wouldn't normally be so involved, but I'm trying to hold my and Eklipse's good names.

@Hostile

Grammar Nazi case : stopped.

Corrected, i actually hesitated to add the extra "p" but i ended up not doing it.

What is the difference between religion and philosophy ? The line is not always clear...

Here is the definitions i got from wikipedia, wich i think are good enough
"Philosophy is the study of the general and fundamental nature of reality, existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind, and language.
A religion is an organized collection of beliefs, cultural systems, and world views that relate humanity to an order of existence."

Both philosophy and religion try to explain the nature of reality, but they do it using vastly different methods.

Philosophy try to explain reality through arguments, conversation, theories. Philosophy is an open debate. There is no definitive answer in philosophy.

Religion explains reality through faith, supernatural beliefs and superstitions. And usually, specifically monotheistic religions, make the claim to have a definitive answer about the "truth" of our reality, a truth revealed through a holy book representing the perfect word of the perfect creator of our world. The debate in monotheistic religions is essentially about the interpretation of the holy book.

Edited 10/9/2015 00:04:23

But you have metaphysics that are on borderline of religion-philosophy.

The first greek philosophies borrowed many ideas/themes from religion.



Confucionism can be viewed as religion AND philosophy by example. Both definitions are true.



They both discuss moral grounds or try to FIND the ultimate truth. Socratism was a religion.

Edited 10/9/2015 00:45:48

I agree with you. Actually the problem i see is in the question. Philosophy is more or less defined, but religion is a term so broad, and englobe so many different system of beliefs that you kinda have to take it case by case if you want to compare it to philosophy, or measure what in the religious doctrine has more to do with philosophy than faith, etc.

Philosophy and religion are not mutually exclusive, as religious doctrines can (and often are) based on phylosophic arguments.
You can also have a philosophic discussion based on a religious point of view.

1. i had no interaction with zhuq before this thread (i havent sent him a mail since he left the wolves)
2. i misread who committed the fallacies, the fallacies were commited by both of you throughout your posts however the majority of the ones commited by hitch were relevant to the argument and therefor not fallacies of relevance.
3. most fallacies are named in latin, just so happens i know latin well.

Now i offer a compromise since this debate has gone on to long and doesn't look to be going anywhere for a while.

Hitch i think your in the right, send me a mail and i can explain each verse you listed in detail, (it would go quicker if i sent you my skype)

Zhuq and eklipse, although your arguments were pretty great as well, i would prefer you to hold some of your debating skill for when we have one on the topic of comparing/contrasting religion

@Relm
Dont worry, the "debate" is over, i rested my case. It was never a debate in the first place, it was me defending myself against stupid accusations. I deeply regret wasting my time on these guys and should have stopped this way before i did, since it was clear that there is no way to reason with them (Especially Zhuq, at least Eklipse knows how to make coherent sentence)

I don't accept the claim that i have made any logical fallacy, and you haven't pointed to me any of the alleged fallacies, exept the one that you then admitted was not a fallacy (apparently)

The only claim that i accept, and never contested, is that i wasn't diplomatic and that i (later on) used offensive language.

As for your explanation for the bible verses i posted, we can have a conversation about them using PM if you want. Although I am not asking you to do that, so only do it if you want to. I wouldn't want to force anyone to do anything ;)

So back to not fighting a flamewar. Pope Francis - Is he awesome or not?

He's a Argentinean so yes, he is awesome.

Pope Francis seems like a pretty decent guy so far. Taking a stand against climate change and poverty is definitely something I can respect.

Seems like the most progressive pope in about the last 1000 years, so yes. I actually agree with him on somethings, unlike the last guy.

He follows the loving and forgiving path, so I'm chill with him, too. Although what he said regarding the border between the US and Mexico showed to me that he advocates true self-sacrifice, which is something a country's government cannot do, seeing as their top priority is (should be, at least) its own people. Other than that, he's good.

I like this Pope, we disagree on a number of things, but overall i think he is a force for good in this world, and a huge improvement from previous popes. He is trying to bring a number of christians up to speed with current moral standards and scientific knowledge. If someone can do it i guess it is him.

He is trying to bring a number of christians up to speed with current moral standards

Define "current moral standards", last I checked that tends to differ country to country.

@Eklipse

Well you know, maybe don't be obsessed with homosexuals and abortion, abolish death penalty, condoms may not be as bad as aids...that sort of stuff. He still have a lot of work to do but his stance on these subjects is going in the right direction. Most of the developped world (exept america) has already moved on from these issues, that's what i meant by current moral standards.

Well you know, maybe don't be obsessed with homosexuals and abortion, abolish death penalty, condoms may not be as bad as aids...that sort of stuff. He still have a lot of work to do but his stance on these subjects is going in the right direction. Most of the developped world (exept america) has already moved on from these issues, that's what i meant by current moral standards.

This post shows both arrogance and ignorance. First off, only twenty something countries have legalized gay marriage. You call that most of the world?

Abortion is banned or heavily restricted in almost all of South and Central America, Africa, the Middle East, and parts of Asia.

Majority of the world has abolished the death penalty, but not by a huge margin. There's still large swathes of Asia, Africa, and the Middle East who utilize it. Meanwhile the U.S is still divided on itself regarding this matter.

My point is, none of the issues you described have been clear-cut decided by most of the world. The international community is severely split on most of these. I hate it when people from Europe act as if their continent counts as the entire developed world, you are a very small part of it. Not the whole.

Tl,dr: Your standards are not THE standards. To imply the moral high ground like that is pretty arrogant given how intensely debated and undecided this topics are.

Edited 10/10/2015 18:38:24

Ah, abortion is a big deal. Especially with the b*tches who just aren't responsible.

@Eklipse:

I just want to point out that i said most of "developped" world, i didn't say most of the world, so all of the things you said, while true, completely missed my point.
So you can call me arrogant and ignorant all you like, but at least try to be consistent and read twice what i write, because once is apparently not enough for you to understand.

I know that european moral standards are not THE moral standards, but i think they are better than the moral standards we see elsewhere in regard to these issues.

Edited 10/11/2015 08:03:01

Man you have chance to stop arguing just do it.

Edited 10/11/2015 08:02:18